United States v. Ogren , 54 M.J. 481 ( 2001 )


Menu:
  •                        UNITED STATES, Appellee
    V.
    Robert B. OGREN, Seaman Recruit
    U.S. Navy, Appellant
    No. 00-0169
    Crim. App. No. 99-0041
    United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces
    Argued October 11, 2000
    Decided May 2, 2001
    BAKER, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which
    CRAWFORD, C.J., and SULLIVAN, GIERKE, and EFFRON, JJ.,
    joined.
    Counsel
    For Appellant: Major Charles C. Hale, USMC (argued);
    Lieutenant Commander L. J. Lofton, JAGC, USN (on brief).
    For Appellee: Lieutenant Deborah Sue Mayer, JAGC, USNR
    (argued); Colonel Kevin M. Sandkuhler, USMC, Commander
    Eugene E. Irvin, JAGC, USN, and Lieutenant Kevin S.
    Rosenberg, JAGC, USNR (on brief).
    Military Judge:      Peter. J. Straub
    THIS OPINION IS SUBJECT TO EDITORIAL CORRECTION BEFORE PUBLICATION.
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    Judge BAKER delivered the opinion of the Court.
    A general court-martial composed of a military judge
    sitting alone convicted appellant, pursuant to mixed pleas,
    of disrespectful language (3 specifications), disobeying a
    petty officer, damaging military property, assault and
    battery, and communication of a threat (2 specifications),
    in violation of Articles 91, 108, 128, and 134, Uniform
    Code of Military Justice, 10 USC §§ 891, 908, 928, and 934,
    respectively.            One specification of communicating a threat
    involved a violation of 18 USC § 871, “Threats against
    President[.]”            Appellant was sentenced to a dishonorable
    discharge, confinement for 12 months, and partial
    forfeitures.           The convening authority approved these
    results, and the Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed.
    
    52 M.J. 528
    (1999).
    On appellant’s petition, we granted review of the
    following issue:
    WHETHER THE LOWER COURT ERRED IN FINDING APPELLANT’S
    CONVICTION OF THREATENING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
    STATES LEGALLY AND FACTUALLY SUFFICIENT AS THERE WAS
    NO EVIDENCE OF A “TRUE THREAT.”
    Although this Court has addressed the question of
    threats, see, e.g., United States v. Phillips, 
    42 M.J. 127
    (1995), this is a case of first impression involving the
    interpretation of 18 USC § 871.              After adopting the so-
    2
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    called objective test in our analysis of the willfulness of
    the threat and viewing the evidence in the light most
    favorable to the prosecution, we conclude that a rational
    trier of fact could have reasonably found beyond a
    reasonable doubt that appellant knowingly and willfully
    uttered a true threat in violation of § 871.                    We affirm.
    I.    Facts
    The events at issue occurred on July 21 and 22, 1998,
    26 and 27 days after appellant was placed in pretrial
    confinement awaiting general court-martial on unrelated
    charges.
    On two separate occasions on July 21, appellant made
    statements involving the President.                    Appellant first told
    Petty Officer Lyell: “**** off.                   And **** the rest of the
    staff.       **** Admiral Green.              Hell, **** the President, too.
    . . .      [As] a matter of fact, if I could get out of here
    right now, I would get a gun and kill that bastard.”                    Petty
    Officer Lyell understood that this latter reference was to
    the President of the United States.                    Appellant did not
    indicate that he had a plan or scheme to get a gun and kill
    3
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    the President.            However, Petty officer Lyell took the
    statement seriously.1
    Appellant’s second statement was to Operations
    Specialist Second Class Marnati, recounted by Marnati at
    trial as follows:
    OSI Marnati: [I asked appellant] why he was beating
    on his cell and what’s he yelling for. . . . He told
    me, “I can’t wait to get out of here, Man.” I said,
    “Why?” He said, “Because I’m going to find the
    President, and I’m going to shove a gun up his ***,
    and I’m going to blow his ******* brains out.”. . .I
    asked him which President he was talking about. . . .
    He said, “Clinton, Man. I’m going to find Clinton and
    blow his ******* brains out” or similar to that.
    Appellant’s statements surprised Marnati.2              He had never
    heard anyone threaten the President before.3              Lyell and
    Marnati recorded appellant’s statements in the log and
    telephoned the Secret Service.               There is no indication in
    the record that either statement was made for political,
    religious, or moral reasons.
    The Secret Service responds whenever it receives a
    report that someone has threatened the President.               On July
    22, Special Agent Cohen interviewed appellant.               Asked to
    1
    At trial, Lyell stated: “[T]hat’s a little bit more serious of
    anything else that he had done. . . . I took him serious enough, yes.”
    2
    Marnati testified he was surprised “[n]ot so much [by] the way he said
    it; it’s just the fact he actually said it and what he was going to
    do.”
    3
    The record is ambiguous as to whether appellant told one staff member
    that he wanted to use a knife to kill the President and another staff
    member that he wanted to use a gun to kill the President.
    4
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    describe what he had said, appellant repeated his
    statements with words similar to those described above.
    Special Agent Cohen testified:                    “[H]e did admit to making a
    threat -- but he didn’t say again that he would do it, no.”
    Significantly, when appellant was asked whether he owned
    guns, he responded:                “No, but I can get them.”     Appellant
    also asked Special Agent Cohen “if his other than honorable
    discharge would affect his ability to get weapons . . . for
    hunting.”         At the same time, appellant told the Secret
    Service that he was blowing off steam and was expressing
    displeasure at his incarceration.                   In response to a query
    by Special Agent Cohen, appellant drafted a sworn statement
    of apology to the President.
    The record reflects that appellant was a “problem
    confinee” with a mixed record.                    At times, he was respectful
    and followed orders.                However, he was always making
    comments to the staff and other confinees.                   He would holler
    at them from his cell.                   He would constantly indicate he did
    not want to be in the pretrial confinement facility.                   There
    were a couple of times appellant caused problems and was
    placed in segregation.                   However, after his Secret Service
    interview, appellant “pretty much quieted down and started
    actually becoming a little bit more cooperative and
    5
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    adherent to rules and regulations.”                 Appellant did not
    subsequently threaten the President.
    II.   Discussion
    Section 871(a) of Title 184 was enacted in 1917 against
    a backdrop of three presidential assassinations.5                   The
    statute is intended to prevent and deter individuals from
    attacking the President or inciting others to do so.6                      The
    statute is also intended to prevent disruptions in the
    ability of the President to undertake his responsibilities
    caused by confining his activities and movement, including
    those activities of a public nature.                    Rogers v. United
    States, 
    422 U.S. 35
    , 47 (1975)(Marshall, J., concurring);
    4
    Section 871(a) provides:
    Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the
    mail or for a delivery from any post office of by any letter
    carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document
    containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to
    inflict bodily harm upon the President of The United States, the
    President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the
    order of succession to the office of President of the United
    States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowing and willfully
    otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-
    elect, Vice President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined
    under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
    As originally enacted, the statute applied only to the President of the
    United States.
    5
    President Lincoln (1865), President Garfield (1881), and President
    McKinley (1901). Those purposes remain as valid and needful today as
    they were in 1917. Since 1917, there has been one presidential
    assassination and at least six attempts to kill the President or
    President-elect.
    6
    See 53 Cong. Rec. 9377-9378 (1916).
    6
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    Roy v. United States, 
    416 F.2d 874
    , 877 (9th Cir. 1969);
    United States v. Hoffman, 
    806 F.2d 703
    , 706 (7th Cir.
    1986); see also H.R. Rep. No. 652, 64th Cong., 1st Sess. (May
    8, 1916) (“It is the first and highest duty of a Government
    to protect its governmental agencies, in the performance of
    their public services, from threats of violence which would
    tend to coerce them or restrain them in the performance of
    their duties.”).              Finally, the legislative history
    indicates that Congress considered threats against the
    President to be of such significance as to warrant a
    statutory prohibition different from the statutes
    applicable to other officials.7
    However, Congress was also mindful of the statute’s
    potential to reach protected First Amendment speech and
    intended to establish more than a technical offense.             As
    the Floor Manager for the bill stated:
    I think it must be a willful intent to do serious
    injury to the President. If you make it a mere
    technical offense, you do not give him much of a
    chance when he comes to answer before a court and
    7
    The statement of Representative Mann illustrates these points:
    “Assaulting the President of the United States is quite a different
    matter from assaulting some private individual. . . .[I]n this bill you
    are differentiating the office of President, and the man who fills the
    office, from any other citizen of the United States, as ought to be
    done.” Representative Webb went further, suggesting that one purpose
    of the bill was to protect the President from the “annoyance” of
    threatening mail and not only to protect his life. 53 Cong. Rec. 9377.
    7
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    jury. I do not think we ought to be too anxious to
    convict a man who does a thing thoughtlessly.
    53 Cong. Rec. 9378.
    With this legislative history in mind, courts have
    required the Government to prove two elements beyond a
    reasonable doubt to convict pursuant to § 871(a).               First,
    the threat rendered must be a “true” threat.               Second, the
    threat must be knowing and willful.
    A.     True Threat
    Section 871(a) must be read consistent with the
    dictates of the First Amendment.8               Justice Douglas has
    observed that criticism of the President and Congress is an
    American birthright: “Suppression of speech as an effective
    police measure is an old, old device, outlawed by our
    Constitution.”            Watts v. United States, 
    394 U.S. 705
    , 712
    (1969) (concurring).                Therefore, only “true” threats have
    been found to satisfy the statute’s threshold of criminal
    conduct; a true threat is not protected First Amendment
    8
    The First Amendment provides that “Congress shall make no law...
    abridging the freedom of speech[.]”
    8
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    speech.9        United States v. Howell, 
    719 F.2d 1258
    , 1260 (5th
    Cir. 1984); United States v. Carrier, 
    672 F.2d 300
    , 303,
    306 (2d Cir. 1982).                In addition to political hyperbole,
    “true” threats also may not include jests or innocuous
    remarks.        
    Watts, 394 U.S. at 707-08
    .
    In Watts, the Supreme Court found § 871(a)
    constitutional on its face, but reversed Watts’s conviction
    because: (1) the “context"; (2) "the expressly conditional
    nature of the statement"; and (3) "the reaction of the
    listeners" indicated Watts’s words did not amount to a true
    threat but, rather, a “kind of very crude offensive method
    of stating a political opposition to the President.”               
    Id. Applying this
    three-part language, courts have struggled
    with the concept of what constitutes a “true threat.”
    In Howell, a patient in a state hospital made
    threatening remarks against the President.               The FBI was
    notified by the hospital, and an agent visited Howell.
    Howell proceeded to tell the agent “that he had a .357
    caliber pistol and that there were two people he wanted to
    9
    Justice Holmes’s analogy to shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater is,
    perhaps, the most famous expression of the limitations of the First
    Amendment; however, its illustrative instruction only goes so far, as
    it is an example free of political content. See generally H. Kalven,
    A Worthy Tradition (1988), for discussion of the Court’s First
    Amendment jurisprudence and what Kalven describes as “the basic problem
    of finding an accommodation between speech too close to action and
    censorship too close to criticism.” 
    Id. at 156.
    9
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    kill—one of them was the President.”          Howell was advised of
    his constitutional rights and stated: “If released, I would
    make my way to Washington and kill him—I will kill the
    President.”          The FBI agent asked Howell to write down his
    statements, and Howell said he wanted a lawyer.          The next
    day, Howell handed a hospital social worker an envelope for
    the FBI agent containing a letter detailing his threats
    against the 
    President. 719 F.2d at 1260
    .          The Howell court
    found Howell’s threats to be “true” threats, and that,
    “[f]ar from attempting to influence others, Howell was
    merely stating his own unambiguous and apparently quite
    serious intention to take the life of the President.”          
    Id. at 1260-61.
    In United States v. Miller, 
    115 F.3d 361
    (6th Cir.
    1997), a prisoner claimed that “a rational person” would
    not believe that a letter he wrote to the President
    “published a ‘true threat’ to kill or injure the President
    or the Vice President because he was incarcerated in a
    penal institution at the pertinent time and because the
    letter’s content evinced a delusional originator.” 
    Id. at 363.
    In deciding that the lower court properly submitted
    the “true threat” issue to the jury, the Miller court
    found:
    10
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    The writing menacingly suggested its author’s
    motives for inflicting injury upon the President
    and the Vice President, pointedly asserted that
    his claimed associates outside the prison would
    carry out the threatened assassinations, and
    confidently proclaimed his perceived immunity
    from prosecution by virtue of his incarceration
    alibi. The manifest instability and
    irrationality of the perpetrator of these menaces
    did not objectively diminish the letter’s
    credibility but instead predictably heightened
    apprehension by its recipients that the author
    could be sufficiently imbalanced to seek the
    realization of his proclamations.
    
    Id. at 364.
    In United States v. Frederickson, 
    601 F.2d 1358
    (8th
    Cir. 1979), the court distinguished between statements that
    formed the basis of three counts alleging threats against
    the President.10            The Frederickson court found that the
    statement, “I will have to kill him,” referring to the
    President, was properly submitted to the jury for a
    determination whether it was a true threat because it was
    made seriously and without provocation.            On the other hand,
    10
    Frederickson was arrested for trespass in Iowa. While in custody, he
    told the police that he was from California and was on his way to
    Washington to sue the President. He then made these three additional
    statements to the police for which he was prosecuted: “Sue him? I
    probably wouldn’t get any money anyway. I will have to kill him.”
    (Count I); “Well, as soon as my toys get here I will eliminate all the
    pigs from the President on down.” (Count II); “You know, I have an M-
    79 [grenade launcher]. I am going to blow them all up. I start with
    the President and go down.” (Count 
    III). 601 F.2d at 1361-62
    . The
    court reversed on Count II and affirmed Frederickson’s convictions on
    Counts I and III.
    11
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    statements that he would blow up “pigs” starting with the
    President and going down, made while upset about his
    arrest, were distinguished from the same statements made
    when he was “outwardly calm” and he
    volunteered a scheme of assassination utilizing a
    specific weapon and commencing with a particular
    individual, the President, who could be found in
    the place that was Frederickson’s announced
    destination, Washington, D.C.
    
    Id. at 1364.
              The former were found not to have been
    properly submitted to the jury to decide the “true threat”
    issue.       The latter were found to have been properly
    submitted.
    B.      Willful
    The statute also requires that a threat be knowing and
    willful.        A threat is knowingly made if the speaker
    comprehends the meaning of the words uttered by him.
    Ragansky v. United States, 
    253 F. 643
    , 645 (7th Cir. 1918).
    However, federal circuits are divided as to whether the
    test for willful conduct is objective or subjective, that
    is, whether the statement must reflect an apparent intent
    to threaten or an actual intent.
    1.     The Objective Test
    A majority of circuits apply an objective test:
    United States v. Fulmer, 
    108 F.3d 1486
    (1st Cir. 1997);
    United States v. Johnson, 
    14 F.3d 766
    (2d Cir. 1994);
    12
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    Rogers v. United States, 
    422 U.S. 35
    ; United States v.
    Miller, 
    115 F.3d 361
    ; United States v. Hoffman, 
    806 F.2d 703
    ; Roy v. United States, 
    416 F.2d 874
    ; Watts v. United
    States, 
    394 U.S. 705
    .                    The objective test requires “only
    that the defendant intentionally make a statement, written
    or oral, in a context or under such circumstances wherein a
    reasonable person would foresee that the statement would be
    interpreted by those to whom the maker communicates the
    statement as a serious expression of an intention to
    inflict bodily harm upon or to take the life of the
    President.”11          Roy, supra at 877; see also Rogers, supra at
    43-44 (Marshall, J., concurring) (“a showing merely that a
    reasonable man...would have foreseen that the statements he
    made would be understood as indicating a serious intention
    to commit the act”).                In other words, the willfulness of
    the statement is measured by the reasonably foreseeable
    consequences of the words uttered.                     Courts have upheld
    convictions where the declarant pleaded impossibility
    (United States v. Howell, 
    719 F.2d 1258
    ) or diminished
    capacity (United States v. 
    Johnson, supra
    ), or could not
    have acted upon the threat due to incarceration (Miller).
    11
    In Roy, the Ninth Circuit appears to have considered both
    
    perspectives. 416 F.2d at 877-78
    .
    13
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    This court has not had occasion to evaluate the
    application of 18 USC § 871 as assimilated through Article
    134.      In addressing the application of Article 134, this
    Court has applied an objective test for willfulness (“The
    intent which establishes the offense is that expressed in
    the language of the declaration, not the intent locked in
    the mind of the declarant.”               United States v. Greig, 
    44 M.J. 356
    , 357 (1996) (citing United States v. Humphrys, 7 USCMA
    306, 307, 22 CMR 96 (1956)).               The offense is complete “when
    an ‘avowed determination to injure another is announced’”
    
    (Humphrys, supra
    , citing United States v. Holiday, 4 USCMA
    454, 458, 16 CMR 28 (1954)), provided that the language
    communicated and all the surrounding circumstances would
    lead a reasonable person in the recipient’s place to
    perceive a threat.               
    Phillips, 42 M.J. at 129
    .
    2.     The Subjective Test
    At least one circuit has adopted a subjective test,
    holding that a “threat can form a basis for conviction
    under the terms of Section 871(a) only if made with a
    present intention to do injury to the President....There is
    no danger to the President’s safety from one who utters a
    threat and has no intent to actually do what he
    14
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    threatens.”12          United States v. Patillo, 
    431 F.2d 293
    , 297-
    98 (4th Cir. 1970).                In Frederickson, the Eighth Circuit
    applied the subjective test as “the law of this case,”
    without necessarily adopting that standard as the law of
    the 
    circuit. 601 F.2d at 1363
    .
    3.     The Supreme Court
    In Watts, the Supreme Court did not reach this element
    of the offense and resolve the split between circuits,
    finding instead that the threat uttered by Watts13 was not a
    true threat.           However, the Court expressed “grave doubts
    about” an objective test of willfulness based on “an
    apparent determination to carry...[a threat] into
    
    execution.” 394 U.S. at 707-08
    .
    In Rogers, the Court again declined to resolve the
    split between circuits as to the proper test for
    willfulness, ruling on grounds unrelated to the
    interpretation of the statute.                  However, Justice Marshall
    12
    The court went on to note an exception to its analysis where
    “inflammatory statements are made in a ‘full context’ evidencing on the
    part of the speaker a reckless disregard for the strong likelihood that
    his listeners would be incited to do harm to the 
    President.” 431 F.2d at 298
    .
    13
    During a public rally on the Washington Monument grounds, Watts
    engaged in a discussion with a number of the participants. In response
    to a statement that he get more education before expressing a view on
    the Vietnam War and the draft, Watts responded: “They always holler at
    us to get an education. And now I have already received my draft
    classification as 1-A and I have got to report for my physical this
    Monday coming. I am not going. If they ever make me carry a rifle the
    first man I want to get in my sights is 
    L.B.J.” 394 U.S. at 706
    .
    15
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    argued that at a minimum, the willful arm of § 871(a)
    should require “that the defendant appreciated the
    threatening nature of his statement and intended at least
    to convey the impression that the threat was a serious
    
    one.” 422 U.S. at 46
    (concurring).                   Consistent with the
    Rogers perspective, a majority of courts have concluded
    that whether measured by subjective or objective intent,
    the defendant need not have intended to carry out the
    threat, but only to have made a threat.14                      See, e.g., United
    States v. Hoffman, 
    806 F.2d 703
    .
    III.    Conclusion
    Like other federal courts, we apply the Watts language
    for determining a true threat.                       We also agree with the
    majority of federal circuits and adopt the objective
    standard for determining whether the communication was
    willful.          We do so based on the plain language of the
    statute, its legislative history, and our review of federal
    case law, which is particularly relevant to this court in
    interpreting Title 18.                   The objective test more closely
    tracks Congress’s intent in passing § 871 than the
    subjective test.              Although the protection of the
    President’s life is the paramount concern of the statute,
    14
    See the comments of Rep. Webb and Volstead.            53 Cong. Rec. 9377-79.
    16
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    the statute is also intended to protect against the harm
    associated with the threat 
    itself. 422 U.S. at 47
    .    This
    harm may occur at the moment a threat issues, e.g., with a
    change in schedule or the dispatch of investigators.              Thus,
    even if the recipient’s response to a threat is
    subsequently found to be unreasonable, one of the harms
    Congress sought to avoid will have already occurred.15
    In contrast, the subjective test, which seeks to find
    the declarant’s actual intent, imposes too high a threshold
    to accomplish the purposes for which § 871 was enacted.
    While application of a subjective test might deter actual
    assaults on the President, it might not deter a
    subjectively neutral declarant from inciting others to
    action, or from disrupting the President’s activities where
    the Secret Service does not have the luxury of knowing
    actual intent.            For these reasons, § 871(a) does not
    require that the trier of fact, or the Secret Service, look
    into the mind of the declarant to determine actual intent.
    15
    Because 18 USC § 871 can be violated by persons not subject to the
    UCMJ, our ultimate conclusion as to the sufficiency of the evidence in
    this case is not based on the President’s special status as Commander
    in Chief or appellant’s status as a member of the armed forces. Our
    decision to adopt an objective standard for willfulness, however, is
    consistent with the maintenance of good order and discipline in the
    armed forces and serves to promote the proper relationship between the
    military force and its Commander in Chief. Nor do we rely on United
    States v. Stickrath, 
    242 F. 151
    (S.D. Ohio 1917), cited by the lower
    court, which offers the Government too pliant a description of the
    objective test.
    17
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    In adopting the objective standard, we are cognizant
    of the Supreme Court’s “grave concern” with an “apparent”
    rather than actual intent test, as well as the Court’s
    corresponding admonition that “we must interpret the
    language Congress chose against the background of a
    profound national commitment to the principle that debate
    on public issues should be uninhibited, robust and wide-
    
    open[.]” 394 U.S. at 708
    .         Congress did not intend to
    create a technical offense.               For these reasons, application
    of 18 USC § 871(a) necessarily encompasses a careful
    application of law to facts.               This is particularly so given
    the importance of distinguishing between a true threat and
    protected speech.              There is little margin for legal error
    where the First Amendment and the safety of the President
    are at stake; what comes out of mouths may have grave
    consequences for both.
    In the case at bar, our duty is to determine whether
    “viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the
    prosecution, any rational trier of fact could have found
    the essential elements of the crime beyond a reasonable
    doubt."        Jackson v. Virginia, 
    443 U.S. 307
    , 319 (1979).
    Applying that standard to this case, we conclude that a
    rational trier of fact could have found that appellant
    18
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    threatened the life of the President, in violation of 18
    USC § 871(a).
    First, appellant’s threats were “true” threats.                  They
    were not conditional on the occurrence of an event, such as
    induction in the armed forces.16                     Moreover, the specific
    context and the reaction of the listeners in that context
    set these words apart.                   This is evidenced by the testimony
    of Petty Officers Lyell and Marnati.                     In a context where
    appellant frequently hollered from his cell, they took
    these threats seriously.                   They distinguished these words
    from appellant’s other words.                      They logged them in and then
    they called the Secret Service.
    This specific context and the reaction of the
    listeners are also directly relevant to the second
    necessary conclusion -- appellant’s threats were knowing
    and willful.             Appellant should have reasonably foreseen
    that his threats would be understood to be more than a
    crude method of responding to confinement.                     Pivotal here
    16
    In Watts, the Court found that Watts’s threat was conditioned on his
    induction into the armed forces: “If they ever make me carry a rifle
    the first man I want to get in my sights is 
    L.B.J.” 394 U.S. at 706
    .
    As discussed above, courts have not found release from incarceration or
    a mental health facility to be conditional from the perspective of
    Watts. See, e.g., United States v. Howell, 
    719 F.2d 1258
    (defendant in
    state hospital at time of threat); United States v. Miller, 
    115 F.3d 361
    (defendant in state penitentiary). Similarly, appellant's limited
    period of confinement did not make his threat conditional under Watts.
    19
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    are appellant’s responses to Special Agent Cohen.                      If we
    accept arguendo that there is doubt whether appellant
    should have reasonably foreseen that his statements to
    Petty Officers Lyell and Marnati were threats on July 21
    (given his track record of verbal insult), this doubt does
    not carry over to July 22.                  On July 22, with the benefit of
    a night to reflect and aware that his words had resulted in
    a Secret Service interview, appellant did not disavow his
    threat made the previous day.                     When asked, he repeated what
    he had told Petty Officers Lyell and Marnati.                    But
    appellant went further.                  Critically, he told Special Agent
    Cohen that he could get weapons if he wanted, and he asked
    whether his other than honorable discharge would preclude
    him from getting weapons.                  In this sense, the case
    parallels Howell, where the defendant was given a night to
    reflect and still provided his threatening remarks in
    writing the next morning.
    The law makes clear that neither Petty Officers Lyell
    and Marnati, nor Special Agent Cohen, were required, nor
    could they be expected, to divine appellant’s actual and
    subjective interest in procuring weapons when released from
    confinement.           Appellant had said enough to trigger the
    policy interests and prohibitions of § 871(a).
    20
    United States v. Ogren, No. 00-0169/NA
    Appellant’s threats may have been made in anger and
    frustration at being incarcerated, but that does not excuse
    their threatening content.               In some cases, it may make the
    threat more credible, as noted by the Miller court.               Nor
    were appellant’s words uttered in a political context,
    intertwined with the substance of political protest or
    criticism, or an effort at sharing ideas.17
    The decision of the United States Navy-Marine Corps
    Court of Criminal Appeals is affirmed.
    17
    To paraphrase Judge Learned Hand in United States v. Dennis, 
    183 F.2d 201
    (2d Cir. 1950), having not brought himself within the zone of
    protected speech, we need not decide how far outside that zone
    appellant has landed.
    21