James P. Crocker v. Deputy Sheriff Steven Eric Beatty ( 2021 )


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  •          USCA11 Case: 18-14682      Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 1 of 67
    [PUBLISH]
    IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
    FOR THE ELEVENTH CIRCUIT
    ________________________
    No. 18-14682
    ________________________
    D.C. Docket No. 2:16-cv-14162-RLR
    JAMES P. CROCKER,
    Plaintiff - Appellant,
    versus
    DEPUTY SHERIFF STEVEN ERIC BEATTY,
    Martin County Sheriff’s Office, in his individual capacity,
    Defendant - Appellee.
    ________________________
    Appeal from the United States District Court
    for the Southern District of Florida
    ________________________
    (April 20, 2021)
    Before MARTIN, NEWSOM, and JULIE CARNES, Circuit Judges.
    NEWSOM, Circuit Judge:
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021      Page: 2 of 67
    When Deputy Sheriff Steven Beatty arrived at the scene of a fatal car crash
    on I-95 in south Florida, he saw James Crocker standing in the median taking
    photos of the accident with his phone. Beatty seized Crocker’s phone and told him
    to drive away. When Crocker refused to leave without his phone, Beatty arrested
    him and left him in a hot patrol car for about 30 minutes. Crocker sued, alleging
    that Beatty violated his rights under the First, Fourth, and Fourteenth Amendments
    and Florida law. The district court granted Beatty summary judgment on all of
    Crocker’s claims save one, on which Crocker later prevailed at trial. Crocker now
    appeals the district court’s order.
    We affirm. In particular, we hold (1) that Crocker’s First Amendment claim
    is barred by qualified immunity, (2) that his false-arrest claims fail because Beatty
    had probable cause to arrest him, and (3) that his excessive-force claim fails on the
    merits and, in any event, is barred by qualified immunity.
    I
    A
    Facts first. 1 James Crocker was driving north on I-95 through Florida when
    he saw an overturned vehicle in the median. Crocker pulled over to the shoulder
    and got out of his car to see if he could help. Ten to fifteen other people did the
    1
    Because we are reviewing the district court’s order granting Beatty summary judgment, we take
    the facts in the light most favorable to Crocker. Skop v. City of Atlanta, 
    485 F.3d 1130
    , 1136
    (11th Cir. 2007). As appropriate, we will note where Beatty’s account diverges from Crocker’s.
    2
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    same. As law-enforcement and emergency personnel began to arrive, Crocker and
    the other onlookers moved away. Crocker then stood 40–50 feet from the accident
    scene and about 125 feet from his own vehicle. Crocker and other bystanders took
    pictures of the scene with their phones.
    Martin County Deputy Sheriff Steven Beatty approached Crocker and
    confiscated his phone—Crocker says “without warning or explanation.” When
    Crocker asked whether it was illegal to photograph the accident scene, Beatty
    replied: “[N]o, but now your phone is evidence of the State.” Beatty instructed
    Crocker to drive to a nearby weigh station to wait. Crocker didn’t leave; instead,
    he offered to delete the pictures from his phone. Beatty again told Crocker to go to
    the weigh station and that someone from the Florida Highway Patrol would follow
    up with him about his phone. Crocker again refused, telling Beatty: “I’ve been a
    law-abiding citizen of this town for 20 something years, [and] I deserve to be
    treated with dignity and respect.”
    At that point, Beatty informed Crocker that he was under arrest for resisting
    an officer. Crocker then offered to leave—but, he said, not without his phone.
    Beatty handcuffed Crocker and escorted him toward his patrol car. Along the way,
    Crocker told Beatty: “[S]ir, I’ve been personal friends with [Sheriff] Will Snyder
    over 25 years, I employ over a hundred people in this town, [and] I’ve never
    broken the law.” Beatty responded: “I don’t care who you know or how many
    3
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    people you employ, you’re going to jail.” After placing Crocker in the patrol car,
    Beatty turned off the air conditioning.2 Outside, it was about 84° Fahrenheit, 3 and
    inside the patrol car, Crocker became hot and uncomfortable. He sweated
    profusely, experienced some trouble breathing, and felt anxious. Beatty left
    Crocker for a short while, and when he returned to the car Crocker begged for air
    and said he was “about to die.” Beatty responded, “[I]t’s not meant to be
    comfortable sir,” and left Crocker where he was.
    Sometime later, a Florida Highway Patrol trooper came by, opened the car’s
    door, and asked Crocker for his driver’s license. Crocker pleaded with her for
    help, too. Shortly thereafter, Crocker says, the trooper spoke to Beatty, who
    returned to the car and turned the AC back on.
    In total, Crocker was left in the hot patrol car for somewhere between 22 and
    30 minutes, after which Beatty drove him to the local jail. County officials
    eventually released Crocker, returned his phone to him, and dropped the “resisting
    2
    Beatty denies turning the AC off or down.
    3
    The district court took judicial notice of this fact. Although “the taking of judicial notice of
    facts is, as a matter of evidence law, a highly limited process,” we’ve observed that “scientific
    facts” are among “the kinds of things about which courts ordinarily take judicial notice.” Shahar
    v. Bowers, 
    120 F.3d 211
    , 214 (11th Cir. 1997) (en banc). The temperature outside on a given
    day qualifies.
    4
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    an officer” charge. Crocker didn’t seek any medical attention in the aftermath of
    his arrest. 4
    B
    Crocker sued Beatty and Martin County Sheriff William Snyder under 
    42 U.S.C. § 1983
    . As relevant here, Crocker alleged violations of his rights under the
    First, Fourth, and Fourteenth Amendments on the grounds that Beatty (1)
    prevented him from taking photographs of government officials, (2) seized his
    phone and falsely arrested him, and (3) used excessive force during the arrest.
    Crocker separately challenged his arrest under Florida law.
    The district court granted Snyder’s motion for summary judgment in its
    entirety and granted Beatty’s motion on qualified-immunity grounds with respect
    to all of Crocker’s claims except the one alleging that his phone was seized in
    violation of the Fourth Amendment. Crocker filed a motion for reconsideration,
    which the court denied.
    4
    Although Crocker submitted an expert report stating that he suffered severe contusions as a
    result of being handcuffed by Beatty, the district court excluded that report because (1) it came
    four years after Crocker’s arrest, (2) it contradicted Crocker’s own testimony that he suffered no
    visible injuries from being handcuffed, (3) it ignored other significant contributing factors to
    Crocker’s condition, like his pre-existing carpal-tunnel syndrome, and (4) the doctor who
    authored the report purporting to link Crocker’s wrist problems to his arrest didn’t know that
    Crocker had been arrested (and handcuffed) again only weeks after this incident. Crocker
    doesn’t challenge the exclusion of this expert report on appeal.
    5
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    Beatty filed an interlocutory appeal of the district court’s order denying him
    qualified immunity on the phone-seizure claim, but this Court affirmed. Crocker v.
    Beatty, 
    886 F.3d 1132
    , 1138 (11th Cir. 2018). Crocker prevailed on that claim at
    trial, and the jury awarded him $1,000 in damages.
    Crocker then appealed the district court’s summary judgment order granting
    Beatty qualified immunity on the First Amendment, false-arrest, and excessive-
    force claims, which became final when judgment was entered following the jury
    verdict. This is Crocker’s appeal.
    II
    Before us, Crocker presents three issues. He contends that the district court
    shouldn’t have granted summary judgment to Beatty on (1) his First Amendment
    claim, (2) his Fourth Amendment and state-law false-arrest claims, or (3) his
    Fourteenth Amendment excessive-force claim. Because the district court rejected
    each claim on qualified-immunity grounds, we will begin with an overview of how
    qualified immunity works.5
    A
    Qualified immunity “shields officials from civil liability so long as their
    conduct ‘does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of
    5
    This Court “review[s] a district court’s grant or denial of a motion for summary judgment de
    novo.” Harris v. Bd. of Educ. of the City of Atlanta, 
    105 F.3d 591
    , 595 (11th Cir. 1997) (per
    6
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 7 of 67
    which a reasonable person would have known.’” Mullenix v. Luna, 
    577 U.S. 7
    , 11
    (2015) (quoting Pearson v. Callahan, 
    555 U.S. 223
    , 231 (2009)). When qualified
    immunity applies, it is “an immunity from suit rather than a mere defense to
    liability.” Mitchell v. Forsyth, 
    472 U.S. 511
    , 526 (1985). The doctrine shields “all
    but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law.” Gates v.
    Khokhar, 
    884 F.3d 1290
    , 1296 (11th Cir. 2018) (quoting Ashcroft v. al-Kidd, 
    563 U.S. 731
    , 743 (2011)).
    “To receive qualified immunity, the officer must first show that he acted
    within his discretionary authority.” Lewis v. City of W. Palm Beach, 
    561 F.3d 1288
    , 1291 (11th Cir. 2009). It’s undisputed here that Beatty was acting within his
    discretionary authority, so it falls to Crocker to “show that qualified immunity
    should not apply.” 
    Id.
     To do so, Crocker must allege facts establishing both (1)
    that Beatty violated a constitutional right and (2) that the relevant right was
    “clearly established” at the time of the alleged misconduct. Jacoby v. Baldwin
    Cnty., 
    835 F.3d 1338
    , 1344 (11th Cir. 2016). We can affirm a grant of qualified
    immunity by addressing either prong or both. Pearson, 
    555 U.S. at 236
    .
    curiam) (quotation marks omitted). Whether a public official is entitled to qualified immunity is
    “a purely legal question, subject to de novo review.” 
    Id.
     “Summary judgment is appropriate
    where ‘there is no genuine issue as to any material fact and . . . the moving party is entitled to a
    judgment as a matter of law.’” Skop, 
    485 F.3d at 1136
     (quoting Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(c)). We view
    the facts “in the light most favorable to the non-moving party.” 
    Id.
     (quotation marks omitted).
    “We may affirm the judgment below on any ground supported by the record, regardless of
    whether it was relied on by the district court.” Statton v. Fla. Fed. Jud. Nominating Comm’n,
    
    959 F.3d 1061
    , 1065 (11th Cir. 2020).
    7
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 8 of 67
    On the second prong, only decisions of the United States Supreme Court,
    this Court, or the highest court in a state can “clearly establish” the law. Gates,
    884 F.3d at 1296. Because only clearly established law gives an officer “fair
    notice that her conduct was unlawful,” Brosseau v. Haugen, 
    543 U.S. 194
    , 198
    (2004), the Supreme Court has held that the contours of the constitutional right at
    issue “must be sufficiently clear [so] that a reasonable official would understand
    that what he is doing violates that right,” Hope v. Pelzer, 
    536 U.S. 730
    , 739 (2002)
    (quotation marks omitted).
    Under this Court’s precedent, a right can be clearly established in one of
    three ways. Crocker must point to either (1) “case law with
    indistinguishable facts,” (2) “a broad statement of principle within the
    Constitution, statute, or case law,” or (3) “conduct so egregious that a
    constitutional right was clearly violated, even in the total absence of case law.”
    Lewis, 
    561 F.3d at
    1291–92. Although we have recognized that options two and
    three can suffice, the Supreme Court has warned us not to “define clearly
    established law at a high level of generality.” Plumhoff v. Rickard, 
    572 U.S. 765
    ,
    779 (2014) (quotation marks omitted). For that reason, the second and third paths
    are rarely-trod ones. See Gaines v. Wardynski, 
    871 F.3d 1203
    , 1209 (11th Cir.
    2017) (collecting cases). And when a plaintiff relies on a “general rule[]” to show
    that the law is clearly established, it must “appl[y] with obvious clarity to the
    8
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    circumstances.” Long v. Slaton, 
    508 F.3d 576
    , 584 (11th Cir. 2007) (quotation
    marks omitted; emphasis added); see also Youmans v. Gagnon, 
    626 F.3d 557
    , 563
    (11th Cir. 2010) (“[I]f a plaintiff relies on a general rule, it must be obvious that
    the general rule applies to the specific situation in question.”).
    With that background, we turn to Crocker’s claims.
    B
    1
    We begin with Crocker’s First Amendment claim. The district court held
    that Beatty was entitled to qualified immunity because the law underlying
    Crocker’s First Amendment claim wasn’t clearly established. We agree.
    Crocker’s contrary argument appears to be of the Path-2 variety—i.e., a
    contention that a “broad statement of [First Amendment] principle” in our caselaw
    clearly established his right to photograph the accident scene. For that proposition,
    he first points to our three-paragraph opinion in Smith v. City of Cumming, 
    212 F.3d 1332
     (11th Cir. 2000). There, we said that “[t]he First Amendment protects
    the right to gather information about what public officials do on public property,
    and specifically, a right to record matters of public interest.” 
    212 F.3d at 1333
    . In
    particular, we held that the plaintiffs there “had a First Amendment right, subject to
    9
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021      Page: 10 of 67
    reasonable time, manner and place restrictions, to photograph or videotape police
    conduct.” 
    Id.
     So far, so good—that’s certainly a “broad statement.”
    But in our view, it is decidedly not “obvious” that Smith’s “general rule
    applies to the specific situation in question” here. Youmans, 
    626 F.3d 557
     at 563.
    To borrow the district court’s phrasing, Crocker was “spectating on the median of
    a major highway at the rapidly evolving scene of a fatal crash.” In that “specific
    situation,” we don’t think it would be obvious to every reasonable officer that
    Smith gave Crocker the right to take pictures of the accident’s aftermath. Smith’s
    declaration of a right to record police conduct came without much explanation; as
    the Third Circuit has pointed out, our opinion “provided few details regarding the
    facts of the case, making it difficult to determine the context of the First
    Amendment right it recognized.” Kelly v. Borough of Carlisle, 
    622 F.3d 248
    , 260
    (3d Cir. 2010). What’s more, Smith went on to hold that “[a]lthough the [plaintiffs
    there] ha[d] a right to videotape police activities, they ha[d] not shown that the
    Defendants’ actions violated that right.” 
    212 F.3d at 1333
    . The dearth of detail
    about the contours of the right announced in Smith undermines any claim that it
    provides officers “fair warning” under other circumstances.6 And that’s especially
    6
    None of the other cases that Crocker cites help his cause. Childs v. Dekalb County, 286 F.
    App’x 687 (11th Cir. 2008), and Bowens v. Superintendent of Miami South Beach Police
    Department, 557 F. App’x 857 (11th Cir. 2014), don’t do the trick because “[u]npublished cases
    . . . do not serve as binding precedent and cannot be relied upon to define clearly established
    law.” J W by & through Tammy Williams v. Birmingham Bd. of Educ., 
    904 F.3d 1248
    , 1260 n.1
    10
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682             Date Filed: 04/20/2021        Page: 11 of 67
    so here, given the chaos of a fatal car crash and a citizen who (as we will explain
    shortly) might well have been photographing the incident from an unlawful
    vantage point.
    The dissent concludes otherwise on the ground that “the broad
    pronouncement in Smith underscores the right’s general applicability.” Dissenting
    Op. at 53. And so, as the dissent reads Smith, the “right to record police activity”
    may be “limited only by ‘reasonable time, manner and place restrictions.’”
    Dissenting Op. at 53–4 (quoting Smith, 
    212 F.3d at 1333
    ). Because the dissent
    finds no such restrictions in the record here, it would “hold that Mr. Crocker’s First
    Amendment right to record the fatal car crash was clearly established” by Smith.
    Dissenting Op. at 56.
    A couple of responses. First, there is the Supreme Court’s oft-repeated
    instruction “not to define clearly established law at a high level of generality.”
    Ashcroft, 
    563 U.S. at 742
    . With that negative injunction comes a positive
    command to ask “whether the violative nature of particular conduct is clearly
    established.” Mullenix, 577 at 12 (quotation marks omitted). And we must answer
    (11th Cir. 2018) (citation omitted). (Bowens is doubly deficient; not only is it unpublished, but it
    was also decided in 2014, two years after the events underlying this case. See Brosseau, 
    543 U.S. at
    200 n.4 (decisions that postdate alleged misconduct can’t clearly establish the law).) The
    various district court decisions that Crocker cites fare no better, as they likewise can’t clearly
    establish the law. See D’Aguanno v. Gallagher, 
    50 F.3d 877
    , 880 n.5 (11th Cir. 1995); see also
    Camreta v. Greene, 
    563 U.S. 692
    , 709 n.7 (2011) (“A decision of a federal district court judge is
    not binding precedent in either a different judicial district, the same judicial district, or even upon
    the same judge in a different case.” (quotation marks and citation omitted)).
    11
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682             Date Filed: 04/20/2021        Page: 12 of 67
    that question “in light of the specific context of the case, not as a broad general
    proposition.” Brosseau, 
    543 U.S. at 198
     (quotation marks omitted). Given that
    guidance, it seems to us that Smith’s lack of explanation remains more vice than
    virtue for the purpose of clearly establishing the law here.
    Second, we think that one of the few contextual clues Smith did leave behind
    counsels against reading it to have clearly established the law for the purposes of
    this case. Specifically, Smith’s reference to “reasonable time, manner and place
    restrictions” (which the dissent echoes) calls to mind either “a traditional public
    forum—parks, streets, sidewalks, and the like”—or a “designated public forum”—
    i.e., a place made a public forum by government action. Minnesota Voters All. v.
    Mansky, 
    138 S. Ct. 1876
    , 1885 (2018) (explaining that time, place, and manner
    restrictions may govern speech in those public forums). Smith’s allusion to these
    restrictions indicates that the plaintiffs there attempted to film police activity while
    in a public forum of some sort—Smith would seem to be a First Amendment
    anomaly otherwise. Needless to say, I-95’s median isn’t a public forum of any
    stripe. It’s not clear to us, then, that Smith’s (and the dissent’s) time-place-and-
    manner gloss even applies here. 7
    7
    The dissent notes that time, place, and manner restrictions can be imposed in places other than
    public forums. Dissenting Op. at 54 n.2. That’s true. But what makes Smith’s reference to those
    restrictions telling is that the Court there said that only those restrictions could be imposed on the
    right that it announced. See Smith, 
    212 F.3d at 1333
    . We know that in nonpublic forums, “the
    government has much more flexibility to craft rules limiting speech.” Minnesota Voters All. v.
    12
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    To be clear, though, the question isn’t whether Smith might imply to us some
    kind of public-forum predicate; rather, we must ask whether every reasonable
    police officer in Beatty’s position would have known that Crocker had a right to
    record the accident’s aftermath, subject only to reasonable time, place, and manner
    restrictions. See Ashcroft, 
    563 U.S. at 741
    ; Gates, 884 F.3d at 1303 (“[T]he test
    asks whether already existing law was so clear that, given the specific facts facing
    this particular officer, one must conclude that every reasonable official would have
    understood that what he is doing violates the Constitutional right at issue.”
    (quotation marks omitted)). We don’t think so. Subject to exceptions not relevant
    here, Florida law prohibits individuals from parking on the side of a “limited
    access facility” like I-95, 
    Fla. Stat. § 316.1945
    (1)(a)(11), or walking on the same,
    Mansky, 
    138 S. Ct. 1876
    , 1885 (2018); see also 
    id.
     at 1885–86 (noting that “the government may
    impose some content-based restrictions on speech in nonpublic forums, including restrictions
    that exclude political advocates and forms of political advocacy”). So, given that Smith said that
    the only possible restrictions on the right that it recognized were time, place, and manner
    restrictions, one can reasonably infer that the Court there recognized a right to record police
    conduct in public forums.
    The dissent also suggests that all this public-forums talk is beside the point because Smith
    held that there’s a First Amendment “right to gather information about what public officials do
    on public property.” 
    212 F.3d at 1333
     (emphasis added). Accordingly, on the dissent’s view,
    Smith grants citizens the right to film police “in public,” full-stop. Dissenting Op. at 54 n.2. We
    don’t think it’s quite that simple. First, not all “public property” is “in public,” per se, and
    second, even public property that is decidedly in public doesn’t, by virtue of that fact alone,
    become a free-speech-friendly zone. See, e.g., United States v. Grace, 
    461 U.S. 171
    , 177 (1983)
    (“Publicly owned or operated property does not become a ‘public forum’ simply because
    members of the public are permitted to come and go at will.”); Hodge v. Talkin, 
    799 F.3d 1145
    ,
    1160 (D.C. Cir. 2015) (“[T]he Supreme Court plaza’s status as a nonpublic forum is unaffected
    by the public’s unrestricted access to the plaza at virtually any time.”). Those background
    principles, we think, counsel against reading Smith too aggressively, or, more relevantly,
    expecting every reasonable officer to do so.
    13
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    see 
    id.
     § 316.130(18). When Beatty seized his phone, Crocker was arguably in
    violation of both prohibitions. The dissent’s Smith-based argument implies that, in
    addition to banning individuals from parking or walking on interstates, Florida
    must also craft separate time, place, and manner restrictions governing the speech
    of people who break those laws. That seems odd to us—and at the very least not
    obviously correct. The Supreme Court has long held that “[t]he State, no less than
    a private owner of property, has power to preserve the property under its control
    for the use to which it is lawfully dedicated.” Greer v. Spock, 
    424 U.S. 828
    , 836
    (1976) (quotation marks omitted). And more to the point, we don’t think that it
    would have been obviously right to every reasonable officer in Beatty’s position.
    See Ashcroft, 
    563 U.S. at 741
    ; Gates, 884 F.3d at 1303.8
    8
    One more thing: By its terms, Smith applies only to what the Court there called the right to
    “photograph or videotape police conduct.” 
    212 F.3d at 1333
    . The dissent claims that “it is
    usually easy enough to know whether a plaintiff was recording police activity” and that here,
    Crocker “was photographing police conduct.” Dissenting Op. at 54. To the extent that the
    general proposition builds on the case-specific point, we’re dubious. In his affidavit, Crocker
    said that he stood in the median “taking photographs and recording video . . . of the crashed
    vehicle, the first responders and the jaws of life.” Asked in his deposition, “What were you
    taking pictures of?” Crocker replied, “The overall scene, overturned vehicle, firemen.” And
    when asked if he had “a specific reason” for taking pictures of the accident scene, Crocker said:
    “I really didn’t have a clear and present agenda. I do remember seeing beer bottles laying there
    and I do remember photographing the beer bottles.” On the district court’s account, Crocker had
    just started “photographing the overall scene, which included empty beer bottles, the overturned
    vehicle, and firemen” when, less than 30 seconds later, he encountered Beatty. Even if, for
    purposes of our review, we were to grant that Crocker’s references to “first responders” and
    “firemen” included police officers, we don’t think it’s always as easy as the dissent suggests for
    an officer acting in the heat of the moment to determine whether an onlooker is in fact
    “photograph[ing] or videotap[ing] police conduct” within the meaning of Smith.
    14
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    For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Smith’s rule didn’t apply with
    “obvious clarity to the circumstances,” Long, 
    508 F.3d at 584
    , and, therefore, that
    Beatty is entitled to qualified immunity on Crocker’s First Amendment claim.
    2
    We turn next to Crocker’s two false-arrest claims, the first of which arises
    under the Fourth Amendment, and the second of which rests on Florida law.
    a
    On Crocker’s Fourth Amendment claim, Beatty is entitled to qualified
    immunity because he didn’t violate Crocker’s constitutional rights.9
    The Fourth Amendment protects individuals “against unreasonable searches
    and seizures.” U.S. Const. amend. IV. An arrest constitutes a “seizure” within the
    meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and this Court “assess[es] the reasonableness
    of an arrest by the presence of probable cause for the arrest.” Carter v. Butts Cnty.,
    
    821 F.3d 1310
    , 1319 (11th Cir. 2016). The existence of probable cause bars a
    Fourth Amendment false-arrest claim. Marx v. Gumbinner, 
    905 F.2d 1503
    , 1505–
    06 (11th Cir. 1990).
    9
    Although we often proceed straight to the clearly-established question to avoid making an
    unnecessary pronouncement of constitutional law, here we exercise our discretion to reach the
    constitutional question in order to conserve judicial resources. See Pearson, 
    555 U.S. at 236
    . As
    we explain in text, the existence of probable cause dooms both of Crocker’s false-arrest claims,
    and accordingly, we think it sensible to “avoid avoidance.” Camreta, 
    563 U.S. at 706
    .
    15
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    A few probable-cause basics: An officer has probable cause when “the facts
    and circumstances within the officer’s knowledge, of which he or she has
    reasonably trustworthy information, would cause a prudent person to believe,
    under the circumstances shown, that the suspect has committed, is committing, or
    is about to commit an offense.” Williamson v. Mills, 
    65 F.3d 155
    , 158 (11th Cir.
    1995) (quotation marks omitted). Moreover, “[t]he validity of an arrest does not
    turn on the offense announced by the officer at the time of the arrest.” Bailey v.
    Bd. of Cnty. Comm’rs of Alachua Cnty., 
    956 F.2d 1112
    , 1119 n.4 (11th Cir. 1992).
    Finally, an officer’s subjective intent doesn’t matter for “ordinary, probable-cause
    Fourth Amendment analysis.” Whren v. United States, 
    517 U.S. 806
    , 813 (1996).
    As to Crocker’s Fourth Amendment claim, the district court held that Beatty
    was shielded by qualified immunity because he had probable cause to arrest
    Crocker for violating Florida Statute § 316.1945(1)(a)(11). That provision
    prohibits (in relevant part) stopping, standing, or parking a vehicle “[o]n the
    roadway or shoulder of a limited access facility.”10 There’s a carveout for Good
    Samaritans, such that the prohibition doesn’t apply to “a person stopping a vehicle
    to render aid to an injured person or assistance to a disabled vehicle in obedience to
    the directions of a law enforcement officer.” Id. Florida law authorizes an officer
    10
    A limited-access facility is a “street or highway especially designed for through traffic and
    over, from, or to which owners or occupants of abutting land or other persons have no right or
    easement, or only a limited right or easement.” 2010 
    Fla. Stat. § 316.003
    (19).
    16
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 17 of 67
    to conduct a warrantless arrest for any violation of § 316 committed in his
    presence. Id. § 901.15(5).
    Because Crocker’s car was parked on the shoulder of I-95, a “limited access
    facility,” the district court held that Beatty had probable cause to arrest him. And
    although Crocker might initially have been covered by the Good Samaritan
    exception, the court held that he no longer qualified by the time he encountered
    Beatty, at which point he was standing 40–50 feet away from the crash scene and
    merely observing it.
    We agree with the district court that Officer Beatty had probable cause to
    arrest Crocker. Even under Crocker’s own version of the arrest, “the facts and
    circumstances within [Beatty’s] knowledge” could have “cause[d] a prudent person
    to believe,” Williamson, 
    65 F.3d at 158
    , that Crocker was violating
    § 316.1945(1)(a)(11). No one disputes that Crocker pulled over and parked on the
    shoulder of a limited-access facility or that the arrest took place about 125 feet
    from Crocker’s car. And the district court took judicial notice of the fact—which
    we have no reason to doubt—that this particular stretch of I-95 is “relatively flat,”
    and then concluded, in the light of that fact, that it would be unreasonable to infer
    that Beatty was oblivious to Crocker’s car’s existence.
    Crocker insists, however, that there’s no evidence that Beatty knew that
    Crocker had driven to the scene and that Beatty therefore couldn’t formulate
    17
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 18 of 67
    probable cause to arrest him for the parking offense. But Crocker’s own
    testimony, which we accept as true, defeats his argument. Crocker testified that
    during their brief encounter before the arrest, Beatty “told [him] to leave and drive
    to the northbound weigh station and wait there”—to which Crocker responded that
    he’d be more than happy to cooperate. Crocker also testified that “[Beatty] told me
    to get in my car and drive to the northbound . . . weigh station.” That testimony—
    both Beatty’s commands and Crocker’s responses—would have made little sense if
    Crocker was a mere pedestrian.
    All of that is to say that the facts within Beatty’s knowledge could “cause a
    prudent person to believe,” Williamson, 
    65 F.3d at 158
    , that Crocker’s car was
    parked on a limited-access facility in violation of Florida law. And at the time of
    the arrest, Crocker was just taking pictures with his phone—not rendering aid—
    meaning that he no longer even arguably qualified for the statute’s Good Samaritan
    exception. Because Beatty had probable cause to arrest Crocker, there was no
    constitutional violation, and Beatty is entitled to qualified immunity.
    b
    On, then, to the state-law false-arrest claim. Probable cause bars a claim for
    false arrest under Florida law just as it does under federal law. Manners v.
    Cannella, 
    891 F.3d 959
    , 975 (11th Cir. 2018); see also Rankin v. Evans, 
    133 F.3d 1425
    , 1435 (11th Cir. 1998) (recognizing that “probable cause constitutes an
    18
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 19 of 67
    absolute bar to both state and § 1983 claims alleging false arrest” and that “the
    standard for determining whether probable cause exists is the same under Florida
    and federal law”). Because we hold that Beatty had probable cause to arrest,
    Crocker’s Florida false-arrest claim—like his Fourth Amendment claim—fails.
    Crocker counters that even if his arrest didn’t violate the Fourth
    Amendment, it violated state law because the governing Florida statute requires the
    offense at issue to occur “in the presence of the officer”—and here, Crocker
    contends, the offense didn’t occur in Beatty’s presence. See 
    Fla. Stat. § 901.15
    (5).
    For support, Crocker points out that Florida “courts have strictly construed the
    ‘presence of the officer’ language, requiring that the arresting officer actually see
    or otherwise detect by his senses that the person has violated the ordinance.”
    Horsley v. State, 
    734 So. 2d 525
    , 526 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 1999).
    No matter how strictly we construe it, though, the presence-of-the-officer
    requirement was met here. Again, the relevant rule of Florida law is that “no
    person shall . . . [s]top, stand, or park a vehicle” on the “shoulder of a limited
    access facility.” 
    Fla. Stat. § 316.1945
    (1)(a)(11). From the premise—already
    explained—that Beatty could see that Crocker had parked on the shoulder of I-95,
    it follows that the offense was committed in Beatty’s presence. Because Beatty
    had probable cause to arrest Crocker for an offense committed in his presence, the
    district court was right to give him summary judgment on this claim too.
    19
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682           Date Filed: 04/20/2021      Page: 20 of 67
    3
    Finally, to Crocker’s argument that Beatty used excessive force in violation
    of the Fourteenth Amendment by detaining him in a hot patrol car. 11 “We begin
    from the premises that exposure to uncomfortable heat is part and parcel of life in
    the South and, accordingly, that not every ‘hot car’ case will give rise to a
    cognizable constitutional claim.” Patel v. Lanier Cnty., 
    969 F.3d 1173
    , 1178 (11th
    Cir. 2020). This one doesn’t. Explaining why takes some doing.
    First, we’ll survey the excessive-force landscape. Second, we’ll situate
    Crocker’s claim within it. And finally, we’ll explain why the district court’s grant
    of summary judgment was right even though its analysis was wrong. Because we
    review a court’s judgment rather than its explanation for that judgment, Jennings v.
    Stephens, 
    574 U.S. 271
    , 277 (2015), we will affirm.
    a
    Let’s start with what’s clear: There is no “generic ‘right’ to be free from
    excessive force.” Graham v. Connor, 
    490 U.S. 386
    , 393 (1989). That’s because
    § 1983 protects rights—it doesn’t create them. Id. at 393–94; see also Baker v.
    McCollan, 
    443 U.S. 137
    , 145 n.3 (1979) (explaining that § 1983 “is not itself a
    source of substantive rights, but a method for vindicating federal rights elsewhere
    11
    Although Crocker argued in the district court that Beatty also used excessive force in
    tightening his handcuffs and squeezing a pressure point on his shoulder, he hasn’t pursued those
    arguments on appeal.
    20
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 21 of 67
    conferred”). For purposes of claims under § 1983, three constitutional provisions
    protect a right to be free from excessive force: the Fourth, Eighth, and Fourteenth
    Amendments. Piazza v. Jefferson Cnty., 
    923 F.3d 947
    , 952 (11th Cir. 2019).
    The Fourth Amendment, already introduced, secures “[t]he right of the
    people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against
    unreasonable searches and seizures . . . .” U.S. Const. amend. IV. The prohibition
    against “unreasonable . . . seizures” encompasses a bar on the use of excessive
    force in the course of an arrest. See Graham, 
    490 U.S. at 394
    ; Piazza, 923 F.3d at
    952. The Eighth Amendment forbids the infliction of “cruel and unusual
    punishments,” U.S. Const. amend. VIII, and the Supreme Court has interpreted it
    to prohibit the use of excessive force against convicted prisoners. See Hudson v.
    McMillian, 
    503 U.S. 1
    , 9 (1992). The Fourteenth Amendment provides that a State
    shall not “deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of
    law,” U.S. Const. amend. XIV, and the Court has construed those terms to forbid
    the use of excessive force, too. See Kingsley v. Hendrickson, 
    576 U.S. 389
    , 393
    (2015). So, under the Supreme Court’s current framework, the Fourth
    Amendment covers arrestees, the Eighth Amendment covers prisoners, and the
    Fourteenth Amendment covers “those who exist in the in-between—pretrial
    detainees.” Piazza, 923 F.3d at 952.
    With that background in mind, we turn to Crocker’s claim.
    21
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 22 of 67
    b
    The Supreme Court has long taught that “[i]n addressing an excessive force
    claim brought under § 1983, analysis begins by identifying the specific
    constitutional right allegedly infringed by the challenged application of force.”
    Graham, 
    490 U.S. at 394
    ; accord, e.g., Paez v. Mulvey, 
    915 F.3d 1276
    , 1285 (11th
    Cir. 2019). So, exactly what kind of excessive-force claim has Crocker alleged?
    Not entirely clear. Crocker’s filings before the district court could be read as
    raising either a Fourth Amendment claim, a Fourteenth Amendment claim, or
    perhaps both. 12 But Crocker’s counsel later clarified that his hot-car excessive-
    force claim relied solely on the Fourteenth Amendment. And in his opening brief
    to this Court, Crocker expressly cast his claim in Fourteenth Amendment terms.
    But as you might suspect from Crocker’s shape-shifting arguments, the
    Fourteenth Amendment doesn’t offer a perfect fit for the facts here. As we said in
    Piazza, the Fourteenth Amendment has been interpreted to protect “pretrial
    detainees” from excessive force. See 923 F.3d at 952. And it’s not obvious that
    Crocker was a pretrial detainee. The Supreme Court long ago described a pretrial
    12
    In his complaint, Crocker’s excessive-force claims against Beatty weren’t expressly tethered to
    any particular constitutional provision. He generally alleged that Beatty violated his Fourth,
    Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendment rights, but he didn’t specify which amendments were tied to
    particular excessive-force allegations. In response to the motion for summary judgment, Crocker
    explicitly relied on the Fourth Amendment, and he cited Graham repeatedly for propositions
    about the Fourth Amendment right to be free from excessive force. But he also alluded to the
    Fourteenth Amendment. All of that is to say that the precise nature of Crocker’s excessive-force
    claim is hard to nail down from his district-court pleadings.
    22
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 23 of 67
    detainee as a person who had received “a ‘judicial determination of probable cause
    as a prerequisite to [the] extended restraint of [his] liberty following arrest.’” Bell
    v. Wolfish, 
    441 U.S. 520
    , 536 (1979) (quoting Gerstein v. Pugh, 
    420 U.S. 103
    , 114
    (1975)) (alterations in original). Because Crocker never made it to the probable-
    cause-determination stage, calling him a “pretrial detainee” is hard to square with
    Bell. Accordingly, it’s not clear that the Fourteenth Amendment provides the
    appropriate framework for Crocker’s excessive-force claim.
    Bell’s suggestion notwithstanding, we’ve acknowledged that “the line is not
    always clear as to when an arrest ends and pretrial detainment begins.” Garrett v.
    Athens-Clarke Cnty., 
    378 F.3d 1274
    , 1279 n.11 (11th Cir. 2004). As a result, the
    line—for excessive-force purposes—between an arrestee and a pretrial detainee
    isn’t always clear, either. See Hicks v. Moore, 
    422 F.3d 1246
    , 1254 n.7 (11th Cir.
    2005) (“The precise point at which a seizure ends (for purposes of Fourth
    Amendment coverage) and at which pretrial detention begins (governed until a
    conviction by the Fourteenth Amendment) is not settled in this Circuit.”). And the
    definitional problem creates a follow-on analytical issue: For someone who could
    plausibly be characterized as either an arrestee or a pretrial detainee, it’s hard to
    23
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 24 of 67
    say whether the Fourth or Fourteenth Amendment should govern the analysis. 13
    The day may well come when we need to clarify the distinction.
    Today, though, isn’t that day. Whether framed in terms of the Fourth or
    Fourteenth Amendment, Crocker’s claim fails. 14
    c
    We will start with the Fourteenth Amendment analysis since that’s the
    framework that Crocker has invoked before us. First, we’ll articulate the
    governing standard—which the district court misapprehended and our dissenting
    colleague disputes—and then, having done so, we’ll apply that standard to
    Crocker’s case.
    i
    We recently laid out the proper Fourteenth Amendment excessive-force
    framework and applied it in a “hot car” case in Patel. There, we began by
    13
    Our sister circuits disagree about how best to analyze claims that arise in this “legal twilight
    zone.” See Wilson v. Spain, 
    209 F.3d 713
    , 715 & n.2 (8th Cir. 2000) (discussing circuit split and
    collecting cases).
    14
    The dissent says that the question whether the Fourth or Fourteenth Amendment should govern
    our analysis is “a question the majority opinion injects into this case.” Dissenting Op. at 56. But
    in his brief to us, Beatty argued—no doubt in response to Crocker’s own variable framing of the
    issue—that “[r]egardless of whether the Fourth or Fourteenth Amendment standard were applied
    to this case, the use of force did not violate the Constitution,” Br. of Appellee at 23, and as part
    of his argument that “Kingsley does not clearly establish the rights of an arrestee before arriving
    at a detention center,” he contended that the law “did not define when the Fourth Amendment
    ceases to apply and the Fourteenth Amendment begins to apply,” id. at 25. We took all that to
    mean that one of Beatty’s points was that Crocker’s claim might fall on the “wrong” side of an
    (admittedly) ill-defined line between Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment claims, such that
    Kingsley, as a Fourteenth Amendment case, didn’t help Crocker’s cause.
    24
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 25 of 67
    explaining that claims of excessive force under the Fourteenth Amendment used to
    be analyzed like excessive-force claims under the Eighth Amendment, such that
    we had to undertake a subjective inquiry into whether an officer applied force
    “maliciously and sadistically.” Patel, 969 F.3d at 1181 (quoting Fennell v.
    Gilstrap, 
    559 F.3d 1212
    , 1217 (11th Cir. 2009)). If so, then there was excessive
    force. If not, then there wasn’t.
    Not anymore. In Kingsley v. Hendrickson, the Supreme Court held that for
    Fourteenth Amendment excessive-force claims “the relevant standard is objective
    not subjective.” 576 U.S. at 395. Underscoring the shift, the Court repeated itself:
    “[T]he appropriate standard for a pretrial detainee’s excessive force claim is solely
    an objective one.” Id. at 397 (emphasis added); see also Miranda-Rivera v.
    Toledo-Davila, 
    813 F.3d 64
    , 70 (1st Cir. 2016) (“[T]he Supreme Court has held
    that the appropriate standard for a pretrial detainee’s Fourteenth Amendment
    excessive force claim is simply objective reasonableness.”). So, as we said in
    Patel, our Fourteenth Amendment excessive-force analysis now tracks the Fourth
    Amendment’s “objective-reasonableness” standard rather than the Eighth
    Amendment’s “malicious-and-sadistic standard.” 969 F.3d at 1181–82; see also
    Piazza, 923 F.3d at 952 (reading Kingsley to require an objective-reasonableness
    inquiry akin to Fourth Amendment excessive-force analysis). Here, the district
    25
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 26 of 67
    court erroneously applied the old malicious-and-sadistic standard and, on that
    basis, granted summary judgment on Crocker’s excessive-force claim.
    Before applying Kingsley’s “objective not subjective” standard to the facts
    of Crocker’s case, we must say a few words in response to our dissenting
    colleague’s reading of that decision. On the dissent’s view, both before and after
    Kingsley, a viable excessive-force claim can be based even on “objectively
    reasonable force” provided that the officer-defendant acted with a sufficiently
    sinister state of mind—what the dissent calls “an express intent to punish.”
    Dissenting Op. at 59. That, the dissent says, is because under Bell v. Wolfish, 
    441 U.S. 520
     (1979), “pretrial detainees can establish a violation of their Fourteenth
    Amendment rights by showing that an official inflicted force with an express intent
    to punish.” Dissenting Op. at 62. And, the dissent maintains, Kingsley shouldn’t
    be read to have done “away with this method of proving Fourteenth Amendment
    violations for excessive force claims when it said nothing about having done so.”
    Id. at 63. On that theory, both before and after Kingsley, “proof of express intent
    to punish is alone sufficient” to support an excessive-force claim. Id.
    Several responses. First, while Kingsley certainly discusses Bell’s subjective
    standard for punishment, we don’t draw from that discussion the dissent’s two-
    track treatment of excessive-force claims. Consider, for instance, how the
    Kingsley Court framed the case: “The question before us is whether, to prove an
    26
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 27 of 67
    excessive force claim, a pretrial detainee must show that the officers were
    subjectively aware that their use of force was unreasonable, or only that the
    officers’ use of that force was objectively unreasonable.” 576 U.S. at 391–92
    (second emphasis added). As the Court’s phrasing indicates, proof of objectively
    unreasonable force has always been necessary to a pretrial detainee’s excessive-
    force claim. See Piazza, 923 F.3d at 952 (“Historically, both prisoners and pretrial
    detainees needed to show not only that a jail official deliberately used excessive
    force, but also that the official did so maliciously or sadistically for the very
    purpose of causing harm.” (quotation marks omitted; emphasis added)). Post-
    Kingsley, such proof is sufficient. 576 U.S. at 398. But in becoming sufficient, it
    didn’t cease to be necessary.
    Second, we don’t think that the dissent’s assertion that, as a general matter,
    unconstitutional “punishment” can be proven based on “an express intent to
    punish,” Dissenting Op. at 62, demonstrates, more particularly, that proof of
    objectively unreasonable force is unnecessary to an excessive-force claim. Here,
    we think it important to distinguish between and among punishment and its
    specific instantiations. We agree, of course, that the Constitution prohibits any
    “punishment” of pretrial detainees, see Kingsley, 576 U.S. at 400, including the
    “use of excessive force that amounts to punishment,” Graham, 
    490 U.S. at
    395
    n.10. But not all punishment involves excessive force. Indeed, neither Bell nor
    27
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682           Date Filed: 04/20/2021        Page: 28 of 67
    McMillian v. Johnson, 
    88 F.3d 1554
     (11th Cir. 1996)—the two cases on which the
    dissent principally relies—mention “excessive force” at all. Rather, both involved
    what we’ve called “conditions-of-confinement” claims. See, e.g., Patel, 969 F.3d
    at 1182 n.6. And although the genus “punishment” contains several species,
    including both excessive-force and conditions-of-confinement claims, the standard
    by which one might discern the one won’t necessarily reveal the other. We don’t
    think, then, that an express intent to punish alone, coupled with an objectively
    reasonable use of force, can sustain an excessive-force claim.15
    Third, it would be passing strange if, as the dissent seems to suggest, the
    excessiveness of an officer’s use of force ultimately had nothing to do with the
    excessiveness of that force but, instead, hinged entirely on proof of an “express
    intent to punish.” Dissenting Op. at 63. Imagine, for instance, that an officer
    gently and carefully places a suspect in the back of a brand new—and comfy, and
    temperate—police cruiser, and as he’s doing so he growls, “I pray you hate every
    second of this, you lowlife scum—it’s the punishment you deserve.” It’s
    15
    We recognize, of course, that Kingsley discusses cases involving a subjective intent to punish.
    576 U.S. at 398–99. But for reasons explained in text, we haven’t—and don’t—read Kingsley to
    preserve (or create) the possibility of an excessive-force violation, even in circumstances where
    the use of force is objectively reasonable, on the ground that some sinister purpose is allegedly
    afoot. As already explained, the Kingsley Court stressed that “the appropriate standard for a
    pretrial detainee’s excessive force claim is solely an objective one.” Id. at 397 (emphasis added).
    Cases involving the old malicious-or-sadistic standard can be useful as reference points, but
    that’s because proving that force was both objectively unreasonable and malicious or sadistic
    would “almost invariably be more difficult” than proving only the former—not because one
    could stake a winning claim on proof of the latter alone. See Piazza, 923 F.3d at 953 n.7.
    28
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 29 of 67
    unfathomable to us that the suspect could make out a viable excessive-force claim
    on those facts. But that’s precisely the upshot of the dissent’s twin positions (1)
    that an excessive-force claim can be based even on “objectively reasonable force”
    and (2) that “proof of express intent to punish is alone sufficient” to support such a
    claim. Id. at 59, 63. That just can’t be the law.
    Finally, and in any event, even if one could make an objectively-reasonable-
    but-nonetheless-excessive-force claim, Crocker didn’t make one here. In his
    opening brief to us, Crocker maintained that “[i]n Kingsley, the Court held that the
    only issue to be decided in a use of force case was whether the ‘use of that force
    was objectively unreasonable.’” Br. of Appellant at 35 (quoting Kingsley, 576
    U.S. at 392 (emphasis added)). In doing so, he relied on Fourth Amendment
    excessive-force cases as “analogous,” pointing to Kingsley’s own reliance on
    Graham—the canonical Fourth Amendment objective-reasonableness case. Id. at
    37 n.8. He then asked for remand so that the district court could “apply the proper
    Kingsley standard.” Id. at 40. None of that, it seems to us, would have alerted
    Beatty that he needed to respond to an argument about a straight express-intent-to-
    punish-based excessive-force claim. Accordingly, even if were to conclude that
    Kingsley somehow preserved two separate excessive-force standards for pretrial
    detainees—one objective, another subjective—we would apply only the objective
    one here. See Sapuppo v. Allstate Floridian Ins. Co., 
    739 F.3d 678
    , 682–83 (11th
    29
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 30 of 67
    Cir. 2014) (explaining that an appellant abandons issues not argued in his opening
    brief).
    ii
    On, then, to this case. Although the district court erroneously invoked the
    malicious-and-sadistic standard, rather than Kingsley’s “objective not subjective”
    standard, it landed on the right answer. As an initial matter, there was (under the
    proper framework) no constitutional violation. Moreover, and in any event, even if
    there had been, the law wasn’t so clearly established that Beatty should have
    known better. We begin with the constitutional question. 16
    Officer Beatty’s alleged conduct wasn’t objectively unreasonable. The
    Supreme Court has given us six factors to consider in making a Fourteenth
    Amendment excessive-force determination, and although the Court cautioned that
    these factors aren’t exhaustive or exclusive, they’re sufficient here. See Kingsley,
    576 U.S. at 397. In the course of applying the factors to Crocker’s case, we’ll
    compare and contrast Patel in an effort to more clearly demonstrate the objective-
    reasonableness standard’s real-world operation.
    16
    The Supreme Court has said that “courts should think hard, and then think hard again” before
    addressing the merits of an underlying constitutional claim as well as whether the law is clearly
    established. Camreta, 
    563 U.S. at 707
    . Having done our due diligence, we conclude that
    addressing the constitutional claim here will “clarify the legal standards governing public
    officials.” 
    Id.
     Paired with Patel, this case helps illustrate what kind of conduct does and doesn’t
    cross a constitutional line in the context of hot-car cases.
    30
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 31 of 67
    Here are the Kingsley factors:
    Considerations such as the following may bear on the reasonableness
    or unreasonableness of the force used: [1] the relationship between the
    need for the use of force and the amount of force used; [2] the extent
    of the plaintiff’s injury; [3] any effort made by the officer to temper or
    to limit the amount of force; [4] the severity of the security problem at
    issue; [5] the threat reasonably perceived by the officer; and [6]
    whether the plaintiff was actively resisting.
    Patel, 969 F.3d at 1182 (quoting Kingsley, 576 U.S. at 397) (alterations adopted).
    First, we consider the need for force and the amount of force used. In
    weighing the amount of force used, we consider the severity of the conditions that
    Crocker endured and how long he endured them. Patel, 969 F.3d at 1183. Crocker
    alleges that it was 84° outside and that he was in the patrol car without AC for half
    an hour. In Patel, the temperature was about the same—85°—but the duration of
    detention was much longer—two hours. 969 F.3d at 1179 & 1183. So, the amount
    of force used in Patel was far greater.
    What about the need? In Patel, we noted that about half of the detention
    was “not just harsh but also unnecessary” because the detainee there could have
    been held inside an immediately adjacent jail instead of the hot van. Id. at 1184.
    Here, by contrast, there doesn’t appear to have been another feasible place for
    Beatty to detain Crocker. And although Beatty could have cracked a window or
    left the AC running, failing to do so isn’t nearly as troubling as the behavior in
    Patel. Though the need for “force” was slight, the force used was slighter still.
    31
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 32 of 67
    Second, we consider the extent of Crocker’s injury. We’ve acknowledged
    that “resulting injuries can be an indicator, however imperfect, of the severity of
    the force that caused them.” Patel, 969 F.3d at 1184. Here, Crocker’s lack of
    injury suggests that the force used was pretty minimal. 17 That’s yet another point
    of contrast with Patel, in which the plaintiff’s two-hour stint in a hot transport van
    left him “unconscious, hyperventilating, and with mucus and saliva running from
    his nose and mouth,” and a doctor diagnosed him with “heat exhaustion, heat
    syncope, and panic attack.” Id. at 1189. Not so here. Crocker endured some
    discomfort, to be sure, but he suffered no significant injury and sought no medical
    attention following his arrest.
    Third, we consider any effort made by Beatty to temper or limit the force
    used. Id. at 1184. Beatty returned to the car twice, and although he was rude in his
    initial exchange with Crocker, on his second trip back he turned the AC back on.
    In Patel, the officer left the detainee in the hot van for nearly an hour when he
    could have let him wait in an air-conditioned jail. Id. And he left the detainee
    alone for a sizable chunk of the two hours that he was in his van. Id. We
    recognize that Beatty could have done more, but in limiting the time that Crocker
    17
    To be clear, we’re not saying that a lack of significant injury always and everywhere means
    that the force used was reasonable. Cf. Lee v. Ferraro, 
    284 F.3d 1188
    , 1200 (11th Cir. 2002)
    (“[O]bjectively unreasonable force does not become reasonable simply because the fortuity of
    the circumstances protected the plaintiff from suffering more severe physical harm.”).
    32
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 33 of 67
    was alone and in eventually turning the AC back on, he did a good deal more than
    the officer in Patel.
    As for whether Crocker posed a “security problem” or a “threat,” or
    “actively resist[ed]”—factors four, five, and six—it seems to us that the answer on
    all accounts is basically no—his vociferous opposition to his arrest
    notwithstanding.
    So, where does all that leave us? Considering all the Kingsley factors, it
    seems most important there was very little “force” used and essentially no harm
    done. In the Fourteenth Amendment context—and the Fourth as well, for that
    matter—“[t]here is, of course, a de minimis level of imposition with which the
    Constitution is not concerned.” Bell, 
    441 U.S. at
    539 n.21 (quotation marks
    omitted); see also Graham, 
    490 U.S. at 396
     (“Not every push or shove, even if it
    may later seem unnecessary in the peace of a judge’s chambers, violates the Fourth
    Amendment.” (quotation marks and citation omitted)); Vinyard v. Wilson, 
    311 F.3d 1340
    , 1349 n.13 (11th Cir. 2002) (collecting cases “where force and injury were
    held to be de minimis and not excessive”). That de minimis principle reflects the
    reality that “[n]ot everything that stinks violates the Constitution.” Hillcrest
    Property, LLP v. Pasco Cnty., 
    915 F.3d 1292
    , 1303 (11th Cir. 2019) (Newsom, J.,
    concurring) (cleaned up). And it’s hard to imagine how we could find a
    constitutional violation here without making a federal case of just about every “hot
    33
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 34 of 67
    car” incident in Alabama, Florida, and Georgia, which we (once again) decline to
    do. See Patel, 969 F.3d at 1178; see also Peterson v. Baker, 
    504 F.3d 1331
    , 1336
    (11th Cir. 2007) (“Section 1983 must not be used as a font of tort law to convert
    state tort claims into federal causes of action.” (quotation marks omitted)).
    Beatty’s alleged conduct might have stunk, but it wasn’t unconstitutional.
    If we harbored any doubts about that conclusion—and we don’t—we’d still
    affirm the grant of summary judgment because the law on this point is not at all
    clearly established. Until recently, we’d never even “directly confronted a ‘hot
    car’ case . . . .” Patel, 969 F.3d at 1182. Our one-time paucity of hot-car caselaw
    makes it tough for Crocker to win. Not even Patel—whose constitutional claim
    was much stronger—could overcome qualified immunity. See id. at 1184–88; cf.
    Kisela v. Hughes, 
    138 S. Ct. 1148
    , 1153 (2018) (“Use of excessive force is an area
    of the law in which the result depends very much on the facts of each case, and
    thus police officers are entitled to qualified immunity unless existing precedent
    squarely governs the specific facts at issue.” (quotation marks omitted)). And
    frankly, we can’t see how Crocker’s claim could succeed where Patel’s failed.
    Crocker says that the clearly established law here comes from our decision
    in Danley v. Allen, 
    540 F.3d 1298
     (11th Cir. 2008). We considered and rejected
    the analogy between Danley and hot-car cases in Patel, 969 F.3d at 1186–87, and
    we do so again today. In Danley, a prisoner was pepper-sprayed in a poorly-
    34
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 35 of 67
    ventilated cell, and although officials allowed him a brief shower, that proved
    ineffective—Danley ultimately spent 12 or 13 hours stuck “in pepper-spray vapor
    in a poorly ventilated cell.” Patel, 969 F.3d at 1187. The use of force in Danley
    was “altogether different” from the force used in Patel. Id. So too here.
    Like Patel before him, Crocker also points to Danley’s citation of Burchett v.
    Kiefer, 
    310 F.3d 937
     (6th Cir. 2002). Burchett was another hot-car case, and there,
    the Sixth Circuit held that confining an arrestee “for three hours in ninety-degree
    heat with no ventilation violated his Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable
    seizures.” 
    310 F.3d at 945
    . To the extent Crocker contends that Danley’s citation
    of Burchett made Burchett part of our caselaw, we reject that incorporation-by-
    citation argument just as we did in Patel. See 969 F.3d at 1187 (“[A] mere citation
    to an out-of-circuit decision—even with approval, and even with an accompanying
    factual précis—cannot clearly establish the law for qualified-immunity
    purposes.”).
    * * *
    Because Crocker’s Fourteenth Amendment claim fails on the merits—and
    because the law underlying that claim wasn’t clearly established, in any event—we
    hold that the district court correctly granted summary judgment for Deputy Beatty.
    35
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021      Page: 36 of 67
    d
    One final point for the sake of symmetry: We’d reach the same result if we
    analyzed this claim under the Fourth Amendment. We have already observed that
    “the Fourteenth Amendment standard has come to resemble the test that governs
    excessive-force claims brought by arrestees under the Fourth Amendment.”
    Piazza, 923 F.3d at 953. And we’ve said as much about the hot-car context. See
    Patel, 969 F.3d at 1184 n.7 (“Although many of these ‘hot car’ cases arose under
    the Fourth Amendment, the same basic standard applies post-Kingsley (as we have
    explained) to excessive-force claims brought under the Fourteenth Amendment.”).
    We think that Officer Beatty’s conduct was objectively reasonable under either
    standard. Here, as in the Fourteenth Amendment context, the de minimis principle
    applies. See Nolin v. Isbell, 
    207 F.3d 1253
    , 1257 (11th Cir. 2000) (“[T]he
    application of de minimis force, without more, will not support a claim for
    excessive force in violation of the Fourth Amendment.”). 18 As a result, this claim
    falls short whether analyzed under the Fourth or Fourteenth Amendment.
    18
    We recognize, of course, that “even de minimis force will violate the Fourth Amendment if the
    officer is not entitled to arrest or detain the suspect.” Reese v. Herbert, 
    527 F.3d 1253
    , 1272
    (11th Cir. 2008) (quotation marks omitted). But for reasons already explained, that caveat
    doesn’t apply here.
    36
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682      Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 37 of 67
    III
    To sum up: Because (1) the law on Crocker’s First Amendment claim
    wasn’t clearly established, (2) Beatty had probable cause to arrest Crocker, and (3)
    Beatty didn’t use excessive force in the course of arresting Crocker (and the law
    underlying Crocker’s excessive-force claim wasn’t clearly established, in any
    event), Beatty was entitled to qualified immunity. The district court properly
    granted summary judgment to him on that basis.
    AFFIRMED.
    37
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 38 of 67
    NEWSOM, Circuit Judge, concurring:
    The main opinion finds it unnecessary to decide whether someone in
    Crocker’s position—i.e., one who has been arrested but has not yet been taken
    before a magistrate for a probable-cause determination—is (1) an arrestee whose
    excessive-force claim should be analyzed under the Fourth Amendment or instead
    (2) a pretrial detainee whose excessive-force claim should be analyzed under the
    Fourteenth Amendment. See Maj. Op. at 22–24. I write separately to suggest two
    things: first, that this Court hasn’t (to my mind) committed itself to any particular
    position on that issue, which has generated a circuit split; and second, that if
    another panel confronts this question, it should draw the line between arrestees and
    pretrial detainees in accordance with Bell v. Wolfish, 
    441 U.S. 520
     (1979), such
    that the probable-cause determination is the divider.
    I
    A
    First, how and why have our sister circuits split? In short, they’ve divided
    over the question of where to locate the constitutional prohibition on excessive
    force as applied to someone in Crocker’s position. As the main opinion explains,
    “§ 1983 protects rights—it doesn’t create them.” Maj. Op. at 20. That means that
    a plaintiff bringing an excessive-force claim under § 1983 has to ground it in a
    particular provision of the Constitution. See Graham v. Connor, 
    490 U.S. 386
    , 394
    38
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021     Page: 39 of 67
    (1989). For prisoners, that’s the Eighth Amendment; for free citizens, it’s the
    Fourth Amendment; and for those “in between”—those who obviously qualify as
    pretrial detainees—it’s the Fourteenth Amendment. See Piazza v. Jefferson Cnty.,
    
    923 F.3d 947
    , 952 (11th Cir. 2019). But what about individuals—like Crocker
    here—who bring excessive-force claims based on events that occur after the initial
    act of arrest but before they’ve received a judicial determination of probable cause?
    See, e.g., Calhoun v. Thomas, 
    360 F. Supp. 2d 1264
    , 1272 (M.D. Ala. 2005)
    (discussing “this post-arrest, pre-custody time period”). Courts have disagreed
    about whether the Fourth or Fourteenth Amendment governs in this legal limbo.
    See, e.g., Miranda-Rivera v. Toledo-Davila, 
    813 F.3d 64
    , 70 (1st Cir. 2016)
    (collecting cases).
    There are at least two fixed points. First, we’ve been told in no uncertain
    terms that “all claims that law enforcement officials have used excessive force . . .
    in the course of an arrest, investigatory stop, or other ‘seizure’ of a free citizen
    should be analyzed under the Fourth Amendment and its ‘reasonableness’
    standard, rather than under a ‘substantive due process’ approach.” Graham, 
    490 U.S. at 395
    . Second, we know that “the Due Process Clause protects a pretrial
    detainee from the use of excessive force that amounts to punishment.” 
    Id.
     at 395
    n.10 (citing Bell, 
    441 U.S. at
    535–39). What, though, to do about someone who
    might no longer be subject to seizure but isn’t yet a post-probable-cause-
    39
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 40 of 67
    determination pretrial detainee? What constitutional protection against excessive
    force do people in that situation have?
    One answer—offered by exactly zero courts, as best I can tell—is “None.”
    The Seventh Circuit, sketching the argument before rejecting it, put it this way:
    “[M]aybe the Constitution is not a seamless web, and contains gaps that courts are
    not authorized to fill either by stretching the Fourth Amendment or by invoking the
    nebulous and historically much-abused concept of substantive due process.”
    Wilkins v. May, 
    872 F.2d 190
    , 195 (7th Cir. 1989). 1 The argument’s premise—
    basically, that the Constitution neither provides every good thing nor prohibits
    every bad thing—is true enough. Even so, courts—including the Seventh
    Circuit—have uniformly rejected the possibility that officers’ conduct between an
    arrest and a probable-cause determination takes place in a constitutional no man’s
    land.2
    1
    Wilkins is an odd case to bring into the Fourth-versus-Fourteenth conversation because the
    excessive-force allegations there were against FBI agents—brought via a Bivens action—and
    although it spoke of “[t]he due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments,” it
    seems clear enough that the court’s holding vis-à-vis the FBI agents necessarily concerned the
    Fifth Amendment. 
    872 F.2d at
    191–92, 195 (emphasis added). But courts have featured Wilkins
    in this discussion, see, e.g., Aldini v. Johnson, 
    609 F.3d 858
    , 864 n.6 (6th Cir. 2010) (citing
    Wilkins), and the explanation in Wilkins itself certainly implicates the Due Process Clauses of
    both the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, see 
    872 F.2d at 195
    .
    2
    One reason courts have rejected this possibility, I imagine, is that the Supreme Court’s
    decisions suggest, if anything, an overlap of protections rather than a gap between them. For
    instance, in Graham, the Court didn’t answer “the question whether the Fourth Amendment
    continues to provide individuals with protection against the deliberate use of excessive physical
    force beyond the point at which arrest ends and pretrial detention begins.” 
    490 U.S. at
    395 n.10.
    And the Court noted that after conviction, the Eighth Amendment’s Cruel and Unusual
    40
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 41 of 67
    Broadly speaking, courts have done so in two ways. The first involves
    reading the word “seizure[]” in the Fourth Amendment to extend beyond the initial
    moment of arrest. The Tenth Circuit, for instance, has recognized that some
    seizures “may extend beyond arrest up until a probable cause determination.”
    Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 
    745 F.3d 405
    , 420 (10th Cir. 2014). Other circuits
    have done much the same. See, e.g., Aldini v. Johnson, 
    609 F.3d 858
    , 866 (6th Cir.
    2010) (establishing “the line between Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment
    protection at the probable-cause hearing” for those arrested without a warrant);
    Pierce v. Multnomah Cnty., 
    76 F.3d 1032
    , 1043 (9th Cir. 1996) (holding “that the
    Fourth Amendment sets the applicable constitutional limitations on the treatment
    of an arrestee detained without a warrant up until the time such arrestee is released
    or found to be legally in custody based upon probable cause for arrest”); Powell v.
    Gardner, 
    891 F.2d 1039
    , 1044 (2d Cir. 1989) (“We think the Fourth Amendment
    standard probably should be applied at least to the period prior to the time when
    the person arrested is arraigned or formally charged, and remains in the custody
    (sole or joint) of the arresting officer.”).
    Punishment Clause provides the constitutional basis for excessive-force claims, making “[a]ny
    protection that ‘substantive due process’ affords . . . at best redundant of that provided by the
    Eighth Amendment.” 
    Id.
     (citing Whitley v. Albers, 
    475 U.S. 312
    , 327 (1986)). Our own
    decisions likewise suggest some degree of overlap. Compare J W by & through Tammy
    Williams v. Birmingham Bd. of Educ., 
    904 F.3d 1248
    , 1259 (11th Cir. 2018) (stating that “the
    Fourteenth Amendment guards against the use of excessive force against arrestees and pretrial
    detainees”), with Piazza, 923 F.3d at 953 (explaining that the Fourth Amendment protects
    arrestees from excessive force).
    41
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 42 of 67
    The contrary approach relies on the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process
    Clause and concepts of due process that are more (or less) “substantive.” In Orem
    v. Rephann, for instance, the Fourth Circuit acknowledged that although “[t]he
    point at which Fourth Amendment protections end and Fourteenth Amendment
    protections begin is often murky,” an excessive-force claim based on events during
    post-arrest transport “requires application of the Fourteenth Amendment.” 
    523 F.3d 442
    , 446 (4th Cir. 2008).
    If we’re counting noses, it seems fair to say that most circuits to have
    answered this question have lined up behind the Fourth Amendment. See
    Miranda-Rivera, 813 F.3d at 70 (collecting cases). So what about us—where are
    we? On the basis of our decision in Cottrell v. Caldwell, 
    85 F.3d 1480
     (11th Cir.
    1996), some have placed us in the minority camp, lumping us in with those courts
    that rely on the Fourteenth Amendment to analyze excessive-force claims brought
    by those whose arrest is complete but who haven’t yet been had a probable-cause
    hearing. See, e.g., Wilson v. Spain, 
    209 F.3d 713
    , 716 n.2 (8th Cir. 2000).
    Respectfully, I don’t think that either Cottrell or our subsequent interpretations of
    it compel that reading.
    First, Cottrell itself. That case concerned “the death of Leroy Bush Wilson
    from positional asphyxia as he was being transported in the back of a police car
    after his arrest.” 
    85 F.3d at 1483
    . Our court addressed two claims arising “out of
    42
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 43 of 67
    the same facts.” 
    Id. at 1485
    . One was a “custodial mistreatment claim,” 
    id. at 1489
    , and it was indeed based on a supposed substantive-due-process right, 
    id. at 1485
    . The second was a Fourth Amendment excessive-force claim. 
    Id.
     Our
    treatment of the first, custodial-mistreatment claim appears to be the one that other
    courts have read to put us on the minority side of the circuit split. See, e.g.,
    Miranda-Rivera, 813 F.3d at 70 (citing Cottrell, 
    85 F.3d at 1490
    ). But it seems to
    me that a custodial-mistreatment claim is different from an excessive-force claim,
    even if both might arise out of the same facts. And the question as relevant to the
    custodial-mistreatment claim in Cottrell wasn’t whether the Fourth or Fourteenth
    Amendment might govern, but whether the Eighth or Fourteenth did. See 
    85 F.3d at 1490
    . Because a decision doesn’t answer questions that aren’t asked, see
    Cooper Indus., Inc. v. Aviall Servs., Inc., 
    543 U.S. 157
    , 170 (2004), I don’t think
    Cottrell definitely resolved the Fourth-versus-Fourteenth issue for claims like
    Crocker’s.
    Subsequent decisions from within this circuit support that conclusion. First,
    we have (at least once) read Cottrell for what it could tell us about the Fourth
    Amendment excessive-force standard. In Garrett v. Athens-Clarke County, we
    analyzed a Fourth Amendment excessive-force claim and explained Cottrell as
    having “conclude[d] officers did not use excessive force, although [the] arrestee
    died of positional asphyxia, where officers placed [the] arrestee in handcuffs and
    43
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682           Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 44 of 67
    leg restraints after a 20-minute struggle and put him in a prone position in the back
    of a police car.” 
    378 F.3d 1274
    , 1281 (11th Cir. 2004). See also Calhoun, 
    360 F. Supp. 2d at
    1272–73 (citing Cottrell for the proposition that we have “indirectly
    countenanced the application of the Fourth Amendment to post-arrest, pre-
    detention excessive-force claims”). As I read Garrett and the follow-on Calhoun,
    they reveal, at the very least—and contrary to what other circuits have said—that
    Cottrell didn’t commit us to the Fourteenth Amendment side of this split.
    To sum up: Other circuits disagree about whether claims like Crocker’s—
    brought by an individual who has been arrested but hasn’t yet received a judicial
    determination of probable cause—arise under the Fourth or Fourteenth
    Amendment.3 Our own precedent hasn’t settled the issue, either. If I’m right
    about that, then a future panel might have to answer the questions this case only
    caused us to ask.
    3
    Note that because the practical consequences of the split aren’t what they used to be pre-
    Kingsley, the Supreme Court may have less reason to step in and resolve any conflict between
    the circuits. Cf. Piazza, 923 F.3d at 952–53 (“[I]nasmuch as it entails an inquiry into the
    objective reasonableness of the officers’ actions, the Fourteenth Amendment standard has come
    to resemble the test that governs excessive-force claims brought by arrestees under the Fourth
    Amendment.”); Miranda-Rivera, 813 F.3d at 70 (“Since Kingsley has extended the objective
    reasonableness standard for use of force from the arrest stage through the probable cause
    hearing, whether the Fourth or Fourteenth Amendment standard applies presents less of a
    problem in cases like this one than before.”). For that matter, I suppose that insofar as the so-
    what factor isn’t what it used to be, our en banc court may have less incentive to untangle any
    knots in our precedent in this area.
    44
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682           Date Filed: 04/20/2021      Page: 45 of 67
    B
    If and when that happens, I’d recommend that we (1) draw the line between
    arrestees and pretrial detainees in accord with Bell v. Wolfish, 
    441 U.S. 520
     (1979),
    and thus (2) analyze the excessive-force claims of all pre-probable-cause-
    determination arrestees under the Fourth Amendment.
    Although we’ve said that “the line is not always clear as to when an arrest
    ends and pretrial detainment begins,” Garrett, 
    378 F.3d at
    1279 n.11, I think that
    line can be clearly drawn—in many cases, anyway—at the probable-cause
    hearing.4 The Supreme Court has told us that a pretrial detainee is a person who
    has had “a ‘judicial determination of probable cause as a prerequisite to [the]
    extended restraint of [his] liberty following arrest.’” Bell, 
    441 U.S. at 536
     (quoting
    Gerstein v. Pugh, 
    420 U.S. 103
    , 114 (1975)) (alterations in original). It has also
    told us that “the Fourth Amendment requires a timely judicial determination of
    probable cause as a prerequisite to detention.” Gerstein, 
    420 U.S. at 126
    . Taken
    together, I understand Bell and Gerstein to mean that until a judge has weighed in
    on whether probable cause exists to detain someone, he remains an arrestee and is
    4
    I can imagine that the analysis might (?) look different for someone who has already had a
    judicial determination of probable cause—e.g., when he is arrested pursuant to a valid warrant.
    Cf. Frohmader v. Wayne, 
    958 F.2d 1024
    , 1026 (10th Cir. 1992) (explaining that “claims of post-
    arrest excessive force by arrestees . . . who are detained without a warrant, are governed by the
    ‘objective reasonableness’ standard of the Fourth Amendment . . . until they are brought before a
    judicial officer for a determination of probable cause to arrest”).
    45
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021      Page: 46 of 67
    thus entitled to (but only to) Fourth-Amendment protection from excessive force.
    Cf. Graham, 
    490 U.S. at
    395 n.10 (reserving “the question whether the Fourth
    Amendment continues to provide individuals with protection against the deliberate
    use of excessive physical force beyond the point at which arrest ends and pretrial
    detention begins” (emphasis added)).
    Several other circuits have taken that general approach. In Estate of Booker
    v. Gomez, for instance, the Tenth Circuit clearly distinguished an arrestee from a
    pretrial detainee in explaining which amendments control which excessive-force
    claims. See 
    745 F.3d 405
    , 419 (10th Cir. 2014). The court there concluded that
    “the Fourth Amendment, not the Fourteenth, governs excessive force claims
    arising from treatment of an arrestee detained without a warrant and prior to any
    probable cause hearing.” 
    Id.
     (quotation marks and alterations omitted).5 By
    contrast, the court held, the Fourteenth Amendment governs an excessive-force
    claim made by a pretrial detainee, which it defined to mean “one who has had a
    ‘judicial determination of probable cause as a prerequisite to [the] extended
    restraint of [his] liberty following arrest.’” 
    Id.
     (quoting Bell, 
    441 U.S. at 536
    )
    (alterations in original). Other circuits follow a similar (albeit not identical)
    5
    Note that the Estate of Booker court also held that “the Fourteenth Amendment standard
    governs excessive force claims arising from post-arrest and pre-conviction treatment if the
    arrestee has been taken into custody pursuant to a warrant supported by probable cause.” 745
    F.3d at 421.
    46
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 47 of 67
    analysis. See, e.g., Burchett v. Kiefer, 
    310 F.3d 937
    , 945 (6th Cir. 2002) (holding
    that the detention of arrestee in hot patrol car for three hours with no ventilation
    “violated his Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable seizures”); Fontana v.
    Haskin, 
    262 F.3d 871
    , 879–80 (9th Cir. 2001) (holding that “[t]he trip to the police
    station is a ‘continuing seizure’ during which the police are obliged to treat their
    suspects in a reasonable manner” under the Fourth Amendment); Wilson, 
    209 F.3d at 716
     (observing that Fourth Amendment standards apply “not only to the act of
    arrest, but also to use of force against an arrestee who was restrained in the back of
    a police car”); cf. United States v. Johnstone, 
    107 F.3d 200
    , 206 (3d Cir. 1997)
    (applying Fourth Amendment standards to conduct occurring after the arrestee had
    been transported to the police station on the theory that “a ‘seizure’ can be a
    process, a kind of continuum, and is not necessarily a discrete moment of initial
    restraint”). See generally Catherine T. Struve, The Conditions of Pretrial
    Detention, 
    161 U. Pa. L. Rev. 1009
    , 1063–64 (2013) (advocating this approach).
    One might object to this general approach on the ground that it necessarily
    embodies a “continuing seizure” theory, about which we (and others) have
    expressed “doubts,” Kingsland v. City of Miami, 
    382 F.3d 1220
    , 1236 (11th Cir.
    2004), and “questions,” Whiting v. Traylor, 
    85 F.3d 581
    , 584 (11th Cir. 1996). See
    also Reed v. City of Chicago, 
    77 F.3d 1049
    , 1052 & n.3 (7th Cir. 1996). Our
    reticence is well-founded; the Supreme Court has said, after all, that “[a] seizure is
    47
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021        Page: 48 of 67
    a single act, and not a continuous fact.” California v. Hodari D., 
    499 U.S. 621
    ,
    625 (1991) (quoting Thompson v. Whitman, 
    85 U.S. 457
    , 471 (1873)); see also
    Torres v. Madrid, No. 19-292, 
    2021 WL 1132514
    , at *9 (U.S. Mar. 25, 2021)
    (similar). And that view finds support in the original public meaning of the Fourth
    Amendment. See Manuel v. City of Joliet, 
    137 S. Ct. 911
    , 927 (2017) (Alito, J.,
    dissenting) (“Dictionary definitions from around the time of the adoption of the
    Fourth Amendment define the term ‘seizure’ as a single event—and not a
    continuing condition.”). There’s good reason, then, to be suspicious of a flabby
    conception of “seizure.”
    Even so, it seems to me that what transpires between the initial act of a
    warrantless arrest and the subsequent probable-cause determination may be
    considered a “seizure” without doing violence to the Fourth Amendment—or, for
    that matter, even requiring the “continuing” modifier.6 Consider Justice Alito’s
    explanation in Manuel:
    [W]hen an arrest is made without a warrant, the arrestee, generally
    within 48 hours, must be brought before a judicial officer, who then
    completes the arrest process by making the same determination that
    would have been made as part of the warrant application process.
    Thus, this appearance is an integral part of the process of taking the
    arrestee into custody and easily falls within the meaning of the term
    ‘seizure.’
    6
    Tellingly, I think, in the same decision in which it again rejected the “continuing seizure”
    theory, the Seventh Circuit took for granted “the fact that the ‘seizure’ of an arrestee ends after
    the Gerstein hearing.” Reed, 
    77 F.3d at 1052
     (emphasis added).
    48
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 49 of 67
    
    137 S. Ct. at 928
     (Alito, J., dissenting) (emphasis added) (citations omitted). That
    makes perfect sense to me.
    And happily, that understanding of “seizure” supports drawing a nice, bright
    line between the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments at the probable-cause
    hearing. Cf. United States v. Johnson, 
    921 F.3d 991
    , 1004–06 (11th Cir. 2019) (en
    banc) (Newsom, J., concurring) (stressing the importance of bright lines and “clear
    rule[s]” in Fourth Amendment jurisprudence). That is, if that which constitutes an
    “integral part of the process of taking the arrestee into custody” counts as part of
    the “seizure,” then when a person in Crocker’s position makes an allegation of
    excessive force, “the Fourth Amendment provides an explicit textual source of
    constitutional protection.” Graham, 
    490 U.S. at 395
    . (And as that rationale
    applies here, I can hardly think of something more “integral” to taking an arrestee
    into custody than holding him in a squad car.) On that understanding of what
    constitutes a seizure, the Fourth Amendment, and “not the more generalized notion
    of ‘substantive due process,’ must be the guide for analyzing these claims.” 
    Id.
     7
    7
    In Torres v. Madrid, the Supreme Court held that “the application of physical force to the body
    of a person with intent to restrain is a seizure even if the person does not submit and is not
    subdued.” No. 19-292, 
    2021 WL 1132514
    , at *10 (U.S. Mar. 25, 2021). That rule, the majority
    emphasized, was a “narrow” one. 
    Id. at *7
    . So, although the Court explained that “the
    application of force completes an arrest even if the arrestee eludes custody,” 
    id.,
     it’s not
    immediately apparent (to me, at least) whether and to what extent Torres impacts the circuit-
    splitting questions that I’ve discussed here. At the very least, the extensive back and forth
    between the Torres majority and dissent concerning the original meaning of “seizures” shows
    that those looking for answers to these questions would do well to attend closely to text, history,
    and tradition. Compare 
    id.
     at *3–*10, with 
    id.
     at *10–*20 (Gorsuch, J., dissenting).
    49
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 50 of 67
    * * *
    Our duty to follow the Constitution and the Supreme Court’s decisions
    requires us to reject an in-there-somewhere approach to excessive-force claims
    brought under § 1983. We didn’t have to go to the roots of Crocker’s claim to
    know that it could bear no fruit, but in another case, our court may need to dig
    deeper. If so, I hope that panel will distinguish between arrestees and pretrial
    detainees and clarify the analytical framework that applies to the excessive-force
    claims of both.
    50
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 51 of 67
    MARTIN, Circuit Judge, concurring in part and dissenting in part:
    As set forth in the majority opinion, James Crocker witnessed a fatal car
    accident and stood in the median of I-95 photographing the scene. Deputy Steven
    Beatty approached him, seized his phone, arrested him, and locked him in the back
    of a hot patrol car for almost a half hour. Mr. Crocker sued Deputy Beatty,
    alleging, as relevant here, unlawful seizure of his phone in violation of the First
    Amendment, false arrest in violation of the Fourth Amendment and state law, and
    excessive force in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. This appeal asks us to
    decide whether the District Court properly entered summary judgment in favor of
    Deputy Beatty on these claims.
    I agree with the majority that Deputy Beatty had probable cause to arrest Mr.
    Crocker for violating Florida Statute § 316.1945(1)(a)(11). As a result, Mr.
    Crocker’s Fourth Amendment false arrest claim is barred by qualified immunity.
    Also, since Deputy Beatty had probable cause to arrest Mr. Crocker, his state law
    false arrest claim fails as well. But I part ways with the majority as to Mr.
    Crocker’s First and Fourteenth Amendment claims. I do not think Deputy Beatty
    can properly be granted qualified immunity on either of those claims, so I would
    reverse the District Court’s grant of summary judgment on those issues. I
    therefore respectfully dissent.
    51
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 52 of 67
    I.
    I will begin with Mr. Crocker’s First Amendment claim. Mr. Crocker argues
    that Deputy Beatty violated his First Amendment rights when he seized Crocker’s
    phone while he was photographing the accident scene. The District Court held that
    Deputy Beatty was entitled to qualified immunity on this claim, and the majority
    opinion affirms. Maj. Op. at 9–15. The majority says the law underlying Mr.
    Crocker’s First Amendment claim was not clearly established at the time Deputy
    Beatty seized his phone. Id. at 10–11. Specifically, the majority opinion says this
    Court’s opinion in Smith v. City of Cumming, 
    212 F.3d 1332
     (11th Cir. 2000),
    does not obviously apply to the facts here. Maj. Op. at 10–15. But I think the
    majority cabins Smith too narrowly. In my view, Smith clearly establishes that
    Mr. Crocker had a right to photograph the accident scene and I would therefore
    reverse the grant of qualified immunity to Deputy Beatty on this claim.
    In Smith, our Court addressed a claim from plaintiffs who said they were
    prevented from videotaping police activity in violation of their First Amendment
    rights. 
    212 F.3d at 1332
    . We held that the Smiths “had a First Amendment right,
    subject to reasonable time, manner and place restrictions, to photograph or
    videotape police conduct.” 
    Id. at 1333
    . And we explained that this is because
    “[t]he First Amendment protects the right to gather information about what public
    52
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 53 of 67
    officials do on public property, and specifically, a right to record matters of public
    interest.” 
    Id.
     (collecting cases).
    The majority acknowledges that Smith announced a “broad statement of
    First Amendment principle,” but it says this principle does not obviously apply to
    the facts here. Maj. Op. at 9–11 (quotation marks omitted) (alteration adopted).
    More to the point, the majority says Smith’s rule does not obviously apply to Mr.
    Crocker who was “spectating on the median of a major highway at the rapidly
    evolving scene of a fatal crash.” Id. at 10 (quotation marks omitted). According to
    the majority, because Smith “provided few details regarding the facts of the case”
    it cannot provide officers “‘fair warning’ under other circumstances” such as this
    one. Id. at 10–11 (quotation marks omitted).
    I read Smith differently. It is true that Smith does not detail the specific
    facts presented there. See Smith, 
    212 F.3d at
    1332–33. But for me, the lack of
    factual detail does not do away with the right Smith announced. To the contrary,
    the broad pronouncement in Smith underscores the right’s general applicability.
    Smith says there is “a First Amendment right . . . to photograph or videotape police
    conduct.” 
    Id. at 1333
    . This statement is unambiguous and not couched in specifics
    that limit its application. Instead, the right is limited only by “reasonable time,
    manner and place restrictions.” 
    Id.
     And the contours of the right announced in
    Smith do not require such precise definition. Unlike findings about the use of
    53
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 54 of 67
    excessive force, for example, it is usually easy enough to know whether a plaintiff
    was recording police activity. Indeed, a number of district courts within this
    Circuit have relied on Smith to determine, in distinct factual contexts, that the right
    to record police activity is clearly established. 1 I thus read Smith to clearly
    establish a general rule that the First Amendment protects a person’s right to record
    police conduct—subject only to reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions.2
    Smith’s general rule applies here. Taking the facts in the light most
    favorable to Mr. Crocker, he was photographing police conduct. When Deputy
    1
    See, e.g., Bacon v. McKeithen, No. 5:14-cv-37-RS-CJK, 
    2014 WL 12479640
    , at *4–5 (N.D.
    Fla. Aug. 28, 2014) (unpublished) (denying qualified immunity and concluding that Smith
    clearly established the right to videotape a police officer without his consent at a routine traffic
    stop); Abella v. Simon, 
    831 F. Supp. 2d 1316
    , 1329–30, 1352 (S.D. Fla. 2011) (denying qualified
    immunity and concluding that Smith clearly established Mr. Abella’s First Amendment right to
    photograph a police officer who had been trailing him), vacated in part on other grounds, 482 F.
    App’x 522 (11th Cir. 2012) (per curiam) (unpublished); 
    id.
     at 1352 n.27 (distinguishing Kelly v.
    Borough of Carlisle, 
    622 F.3d 262
     (3d Cir. 2010), as relying on cases from the Third Circuit, and
    concluding that “in the Eleventh Circuit, Smith controls and the Court is compelled to find the
    law is clearly established”); Dunn v. City of Fort Valley, 
    464 F. Supp. 3d 1347
    , 1355–56, 1366–
    67 (M.D. Ga. 2020) (denying qualified immunity and citing Smith to conclude that Mr. Dunn
    had a clearly established First Amendment right to take photographs and videos inside the Police
    Department building and around the grounds); Johnson v. DeKalb County, 
    391 F. Supp. 3d 1224
    , 1234, 1250–51 & n.214 (N.D. Ga. 2019) (denying qualified immunity and citing Smith to
    conclude that Ms. Johnson had a clearly established First Amendment right to film an arrest).
    2
    Contrary to the majority’s suggestion, Smith’s reference to time, place, and manner restrictions
    does not confine the right it clearly established to public forums. See Maj. Op. at 12. Of course,
    the government can implement time, place, and manner restrictions in nonpublic forums as well.
    M.N.C. of Hinesville, Inc. v. U.S. Dep’t of Defense, 
    791 F.2d 1466
    , 1474 (11th Cir. 1986) (“As
    in all other forums, the government may subject speech in nonpublic forums to reasonable
    content-neutral, i.e., time, place, and manner, restrictions.”). But in any event, by its own terms
    Smith’s right applies in public and the median is obviously in public. See Smith, 
    212 F.3d at 1333
     (“The First Amendment protects the right to gather information about what public officials
    do on public property[.]”).
    54
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682      Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 55 of 67
    Beatty seized his phone, Mr. Crocker was photographing the scene of a fatal car
    accident and the emergency response, including police activity, surrounding it.
    This record reveals no “reasonable time, manner and place restrictions,” limiting
    Mr. Crocker’s speech here. See Smith, 
    212 F.3d at 1333
    . Permissible time, place,
    and manner restrictions are content-neutral restrictions on First Amendment
    conduct that are supported by a substantial government interest and do not
    unreasonably limit alternative avenues of communication. City of Renton v.
    Playtime Theatres, Inc., 
    475 U.S. 41
    , 47, 
    106 S. Ct. 925
    , 928 (1986). They are, by
    their nature, rules, not discretionary enforcement decisions by individual police
    officers. See Forsyth County v. Nationalist Movement, 
    505 U.S. 123
    , 130, 
    112 S. Ct. 2395
    , 2401 (1992) (“A government regulation that allows arbitrary application
    is inherently inconsistent with a valid time, place, and manner regulation because
    such discretion has the potential for becoming a means of suppressing a particular
    point of view.” (quotation marks omitted)). Again, this record suggests no such
    rules were in place here. And indeed, accepting Mr. Crocker’s allegations as true,
    even Deputy Beatty understood that Florida’s statutes regarding limited access
    facilities did not bear on Crocker’s First Amendment activity. Mr. Crocker says
    when he asked Deputy Beatty whether it was illegal to photograph the scene,
    Beatty replied “no, but now your phone is evidence of the State.”
    55
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682      Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 56 of 67
    The right to record police activity is important not only as a form of
    expression, but also as a practical check on police power. Recordings of police
    misconduct have played a vital role in the national conversation about criminal
    justice for decades. I read today’s opinion to parse this critical right too narrowly.
    I would hold that Mr. Crocker’s First Amendment right to record the fatal car crash
    was clearly established and reverse the grant of qualified immunity to Deputy
    Beatty.
    II.
    Now for Mr. Crocker’s Fourteenth Amendment claim. Mr. Crocker argues
    that Deputy Beatty used excessive force in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment
    when he detained Crocker in a hot patrol car for approximately half an hour. The
    District Court held that Deputy Beatty was entitled to qualified immunity on this
    claim, and the majority now affirms. Yet in my view, Mr. Crocker presented
    sufficient evidence to create a dispute of fact about whether Deputy Beatty acted
    with express intent to punish him. For this reason, summary judgment on this
    claim is not warranted.
    A.
    Before turning to the proper analysis under the Fourteenth Amendment, I
    will address a question the majority opinion injects into this case. That question is
    which amendment—the Fourth or the Fourteenth—governs Mr. Crocker’s claim.
    56
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682      Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 57 of 67
    See Maj. Op. at 22–24. Despite the majority’s discussion to the contrary, Mr.
    Crocker made clear, both before the District Court and now on appeal, that he is
    bringing his excessive force claim solely under the Fourteenth Amendment. And
    while Deputy Beatty notes that the line between arrest and pretrial detention is not
    clear, he makes no argument that the Fourth Amendment, rather than the
    Fourteenth, should govern. Despite acknowledging that application of one
    amendment over the other does not change the outcome of Mr. Crocker’s excessive
    force claim under its interpretation, the majority opinion analyzes Crocker’s claim
    under both the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments. 
    Id.
     at 24–36. In addition to
    authoring the majority opinion, Judge Newsom also writes a separate concurrence
    to say that, in his view, it is the Fourth Amendment that should apply in these post-
    arrest, pre-custody situations. Conc. Op. at 45.
    Judge Newsom is right in pointing out that this Court has not committed
    itself to either outcome. See 
    id.
     at 42–44. And this is not the context in which to
    decide this question. The parties have treated and argued this case as a Fourteenth
    Amendment case, and I would decide it as such. In the past, and in the absence of
    an affirmative answer as to when arrest ends and pretrial detention begins, this
    Court has deferred to the characterization given by the parties, where they agree.
    See Hicks v. Moore, 
    422 F.3d 1246
    , 1253 n.7 (11th Cir. 2005) (“We underline that
    Defendants never argue that the strip search or fingerprinting was separate from
    57
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021        Page: 58 of 67
    Plaintiff’s seizure; so we—will assume (for this case) Plaintiff was still being
    seized and—analyze the claim under the Fourth Amendment”). I think this is the
    best approach and would do the same in this case. I would therefore apply the
    Fourteenth Amendment to Mr. Crocker’s excessive force claim.
    That is not to say that in a future case where the question is fully briefed and
    argued I would necessarily hold that the Fourteenth Amendment always governs
    this situation. Here, however, we have no briefing on the question and both parties
    have understood Mr. Crocker’s excessive force claim to travel under the
    Fourteenth Amendment. I would therefore analyze whether Deputy Beatty used
    excessive force against Mr. Crocker when he locked him in a hot patrol car and left
    him there, as the parties did, under the Fourteenth Amendment alone.
    B.
    The Fourteenth Amendment analysis does not bestow qualified immunity on
    Deputy Beatty for the excessive force claim. I agree with the majority that the
    District Court’s analysis of this claim was wrong because the court failed to apply
    the Supreme Court’s decision in Kingsley v. Hendrickson, 
    576 U.S. 389
    , 
    135 S. Ct. 2466
     (2015). See Maj. Op. at 25–26. I also agree that the force used here was not
    objectively unreasonable.3 See id. at 30. But again, I part ways with the majority
    3
    I do not view the force used here to rise to the level of objectively unreasonable, but neither
    would I characterize it—as the majority does—as de minimis. See Maj. Op. at 36.
    58
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682            Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 59 of 67
    insofar as I do not read Kingsley to do away with Fourteenth Amendment liability
    where an officer applies objectively reasonable force with an express intent to
    punish. I say Mr. Crocker presented sufficient evidence to create a dispute of fact
    about whether Deputy Beatty acted with express intent to punish him.4 And since
    it was clearly established at the time of Mr. Crocker’s arrest that applying force
    with the express intent to punish a pretrial detainee violated the Fourteenth
    Amendment, Deputy Beatty is not entitled to qualified immunity on this claim.
    See Jacoby v. Baldwin County, 
    835 F.3d 1338
    , 1344 (11th Cir. 2016) (“To
    [overcome qualified immunity], the plaintiff must: (1) allege facts that establish
    that the officer violated his constitutional rights; and (2) show that the right
    4
    Mr. Crocker explicitly says in his reply brief that Deputy Beatty violated his Fourteenth
    Amendment rights by inflicting force with the express intent to punish him. See Reply Br. of
    Appellant 10 (“As the Kingsley Court noted . . . ‘‘punishment’ can consist of action taken with
    an ‘expressed intent to punish.’ When someone tells you after you beg for relief, ‘it’s not meant
    to be comfortable, sir,’ that is punishment.” (citations omitted)). However, while issues not
    raised in the initial brief generally are considered abandoned, “briefs should be read liberally to
    ascertain the issues raised on appeal.” Allstate Ins. Co. v. Swann, 
    27 F.3d 1539
    , 1542 (11th Cir.
    1994). Viewed liberally, Mr. Crocker’s briefing raises the issue of the District Court’s failure to
    apply Kingsley when evaluating his Fourteenth Amendment excessive force claim. And Mr.
    Crocker discussed express intent to punish before the District Court. Doc. 156 at 15–16 (“The
    placement of [Crocker] in the back of the patrol car while turning the air off demonstrates a
    conscious decision by Beatty to punish [Crocker] . . . .”). However, even accepting the
    majority’s concerns, see Maj. Op. at 29–30, “application of the waiver rule would be unduly
    harsh,” Allstate, 
    27 F.3d at 1542
     (considering issue not raised in initial brief where party
    preserved it in the lower court, discussed the circumstances of the relevant ruling in its initial
    brief, and argued the point in reply).
    59
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 60 of 67
    involved was clearly established at the time of the putative misconduct.” (quotation
    marks omitted) (alteration adopted)).
    I will now discuss my reading of Kingsley. Then I will set out why, under
    Kingsley, Mr. Crocker has alleged facts that establish Deputy Beatty violated his
    constitutional right. Finally I will address whether that right was clearly
    established at the time of Mr. Crocker’s arrest.
    1.
    In Kingsley, the Supreme Court considered whether, in order to prove an
    excessive force claim, a pretrial detainee must show that the official subjectively
    intended to violate the detainee’s rights. 576 U.S. at 391–92, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2470
    .
    The Court concluded that the answer to that question is no: “the defendant’s state
    of mind is not a matter that a plaintiff is required to prove.” Id. at 395, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2472
    . Instead, it is sufficient to prove that an officer inflicted objectively
    unreasonable force. 
    Id.
     According to the majority opinion, Kinglsey’s holding
    that pretrial detainees can prove excessive force simply by establishing that an
    official used objectively unreasonable force means that proof of objectively
    unreasonable force is the only way pretrial detainees can prove excessive force in
    violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. Maj. Op. at 26–29. In the majority’s
    view, Kingsley forecloses “the possibility of an excessive-force violation, even in
    circumstances where the use of force is objectively reasonable, on the ground that
    60
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682      Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 61 of 67
    some sinister purpose is allegedly afoot.” 
    Id.
     at 28 n.15. But the majority misreads
    Kingsley. Kingsley did nothing to disallow Fourteenth Amendment claims based
    on express intent to punish, and those claims remain viable today.
    Importantly, Kingsley did not wholly abrogate the existing landscape of
    Fourteenth Amendment excessive force claims. The Supreme Court in Kingsley
    merely clarified one of the standards under which pretrial detainees can show “the
    use of excessive force that amounts to punishment.” 576 U.S. at 397, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2473
    . This is evident from the Court’s analysis. The Supreme Court understood
    Kingsley’s holding that pretrial detainees are not required to prove subjective
    intent to be “consistent with [its] precedent”—specifically, with Bell v. Wolfish,
    
    441 U.S. 520
    , 
    99 S. Ct. 1861
     (1979). Kingsley, 576 U.S. at 397, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2473
    . It explained that Bell set out two standards under which pretrial detainees
    can establish unconstitutional punishment. Id. at 398, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2473
    . The first
    Bell standard is subjective: “such ‘punishment’ can consist of actions taken with an
    ‘expressed intent to punish.’” 
    Id.
     (quoting Bell, 
    441 U.S. at 538
    , 99 S. Ct. at 1873–
    74). The second is objective: “in the absence of an expressed intent to punish, a
    pretrial detainee can nevertheless prevail by showing that the actions are not
    ‘rationally related to a legitimate nonpunitive governmental purpose’ or that the
    actions ‘appear excessive in relation to that purpose.’” Id. (quoting Bell, 
    441 U.S. at 561
    , 99 S. Ct. at 1886).
    61
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682        Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 62 of 67
    Kingsley clarified that Bell’s objective standard does not involve subjective
    considerations. The Court explained, for example, that its holding was consistent
    with cases postdating Bell because those cases did not suggest that “application of
    Bell’s objective standard should involve subjective considerations.” Id. at 399,
    
    135 S. Ct. at 2474
     (emphasis added). But the Court never said it was doing away
    with Bell’s subjective standard, under which pretrial detainees can establish a
    violation of their Fourteenth Amendment rights by showing that an official
    inflicted force with an express intent to punish. See 
    id.
     at 397–402, 
    135 S. Ct. at
    2473–76. Much less did the Court say it was doing away with Bell’s subjective
    standard solely for excessive force claims while leaving it in place for other claims
    of punishment, as the majority opinion suggests. See Maj. Op. at 27–28. The
    Supreme Court tells us that it “does not normally overturn, or so dramatically limit,
    earlier authority sub silentio.” Shalala v. Ill. Council on Long Term Care, Inc., 
    529 U.S. 1
    , 18, 
    120 S. Ct. 1084
    , 1096 (2000); see also Johnson v. NPAS Sols., LLC,
    
    975 F.3d 1244
    , 1260 n.12 (11th Cir. 2020) (recognizing this principle). Surely this
    principle holds especially true where, as here, the Court expressly stated that its
    holding is “consistent with” Bell. Kingsley, 576 U.S. at 397, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2473
    .
    Indeed, Kingsley says nothing about redefining what constitutes punishment
    in the excessive force context. The Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause
    “prohibits a state from punishing a pretrial detainee at all until he is lawfully
    62
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021      Page: 63 of 67
    convicted of a crime.” McMillian v. Johnson, 
    88 F.3d 1554
    , 1564 (11th Cir.
    1996). In other words, an official violates a pretrial detainee’s Fourteenth
    Amendment rights if he subjects the detainee to punishment. In the context of the
    Fourteenth Amendment, then, excessive force means “excessive force that amounts
    to punishment.” Kingsley, 576 U.S. at 397, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2473
     (quotation marks
    omitted) (emphasis added). And one of the ways an action “amounts to
    punishment” is if it was “taken with an expressed intent to punish.” 
    Id.
     at 397–98,
    
    135 S. Ct. at 2473
     (quotation marks omitted). It has thus long been understood,
    prior to Kingsley, that proof of express intent to punish is alone sufficient to
    establish a Fourteenth Amendment violation.5 Kingsley—a decision that sought to
    make it easier for pretrial detainees to vindicate their rights—cannot properly be
    read to do away with this method of proving Fourteenth Amendment violations for
    excessive force claims when it said nothing about having done so.
    5
    See, e.g., Blackmon v. Sutton, 
    734 F.3d 1237
    , 1241–43 (10th Cir. 2013) (Gorsuch, J.) (finding
    Fourteenth Amendment excessive force violation where juvenile detention officials used restraint
    chair with express purpose of punishing detainee); McMillian, 
    88 F.3d at
    1564–65 (holding that
    pretrial detainee stated Fourteenth Amendment claim where he presented evidence that officials
    placed him on death row with express goal of punishment); Putman v. Gerloff, 
    639 F.2d 415
    ,
    419–20 (8th Cir. 1981) (explaining that, for a trial regarding a claim that chaining and
    handcuffing pretrial detainees overnight violated the Fourteenth Amendment, “the jury could
    find that the defendants’ conduct was punishment on the basis of direct evidence of intent to
    punish”).
    63
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682          Date Filed: 04/20/2021       Page: 64 of 67
    Based on my reading of Kingsley, I would ask whether the evidence in this
    case demonstrates that Deputy Beatty locked Mr. Crocker in the back of a hot car
    for nearly half an hour with the goal of punishing him.6
    2.
    And I see sufficient evidence here to create a dispute of fact about whether
    Deputy Beatty locked Mr. Crocker in the hot car with an express intent to punish
    him. In a sworn affidavit, Mr. Crocker stated that Deputy Beatty intentionally
    turned off the air conditioning in the car before leaving Crocker inside with the
    windows rolled up. The heat caused Mr. Crocker to experience anxiety, difficulty
    breathing, and profuse sweating. When Deputy Beatty briefly returned to the car,
    Mr. Crocker “begged” him for relief and told him he was “about to die in here.”
    Deputy Beatty responded that Mr. Crocker was not meant to be comfortable and
    again left him in the car with the windows rolled up and no air conditioning.
    Together, Deputy Beatty’s actions and statements create a dispute of fact as to
    whether he subjected Mr. Crocker to extreme environmental conditions with the
    sole purpose of punishing him.
    6
    The majority says this standard would permit Fourteenth Amendment liability where an official
    expressly intends to punish yet uses no force at all. See Maj. Op. at 28–29. But, of course, the
    application of de minimis force (or, as in the majority’s example, no force) cannot support a
    claim for excessive force. Nolin v. Isbell, 
    207 F.3d 1253
    , 1257 (11th Cir. 2000). As noted
    earlier, see supra at 58 n.3, I do not view the force inflicted in this case to be de minimis.
    64
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021   Page: 65 of 67
    Notably, there is a complete lack of evidence that Deputy Beatty acted with
    the goal of furthering any “permissible governmental objective.” Piazza v.
    Jefferson County, 
    923 F.3d 947
    , 952 (11th Cir. 2019). Mr. Crocker was subdued
    and handcuffed in the back seat of a police cruiser. Nothing in the record suggests
    that Deputy Beatty had any reason to turn off the air conditioning in his car other
    than to cause Mr. Crocker to suffer. This and the fact that Deputy Beatty ignored
    Mr. Crocker’s pleas for fresh air and told him he was “not meant to be
    comfortable” further reinforce Crocker’s claim that Beatty’s only objective was to
    inflict punishment. This punishment was plainly prohibited in Bell, 
    441 U.S. at 538
    , 99 S. Ct. at 1873–74, and remains prohibited after Kingsley, 576 U.S. at 397–
    98, 
    135 S. Ct. at 2473
    . On this record, I believe the District Court erred by failing
    to find a dispute of fact about whether Deputy Beatty kept Mr. Crocker in a hot car
    with the express intent of punishing him, in violation of his Fourteenth
    Amendment rights.
    3.
    Finally I address whether, at the time of Mr. Crocker’s arrest, it was clearly
    established that Deputy Beatty’s conduct violated the Fourteenth Amendment. The
    majority gets it right here, as in Patel v. Lanier County, 
    969 F.3d 1173
    , 1184–88
    (11th Cir. 2020), in saying that the mere act of detaining Mr. Crocker in the back
    seat of a hot car for approximately 30 minutes was not clearly established as
    65
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 66 of 67
    amounting to objectively unreasonable force. See Maj. Op. at 34–35. However,
    Patel did not present the question of whether it was clearly established that
    prolonged detention in a hot car for the express purpose of inflicting punishment
    amounted to excessive force under Bell’s subjective test. “Where the official’s
    state of mind is an essential element of the underlying violation,” as it is under
    Bell, “the [official’s] state of mind must be considered in the qualified immunity
    analysis or a plaintiff would almost never be able to prove that the official was not
    entitled to qualified immunity.” Walker v. Schwalbe, 
    112 F.3d 1127
    , 1132 (11th
    Cir. 1997). Here, Mr. Crocker presented evidence sufficient to raise a dispute of
    fact as to whether Deputy Beatty locked him in the back of a hot patrol car with the
    express intent of punishing him.
    Since Mr. Crocker has established a genuine issue of material fact about
    whether Deputy Beatty acted with express intent to punish, Beatty is not entitled to
    qualified immunity. We have held that “Bell’s prohibition on any pretrial
    punishment, defined to include conditions imposed with an intent to punish,”
    should make it “obvious to all reasonable officials” that the Fourteenth
    Amendment prohibits imposing detention conditions with the express goal of
    punishment. McMillian, 
    88 F.3d at 1565
    . Based on this rationale, McMillian held
    that it was clearly established that placing a pretrial detainee on death row for the
    express purpose of punishing him violated the Fourteenth Amendment even though
    66
    USCA11 Case: 18-14682       Date Filed: 04/20/2021    Page: 67 of 67
    there was “no case with facts similar to McMillian’s allegations.” 
    Id.
     The
    imposition of restrictive conditions with the express goal of punishment was
    sufficient to put the officers in McMillian on notice that their actions violated the
    Fourteenth Amendment.
    So too here. At the time of Mr. Crocker’s arrest, it was clear enough that
    police officers may not intentionally expose pretrial detainees to extreme
    environmental conditions for the sole purpose of causing suffering. This “broad
    statement of principle” clearly established Mr. Crocker’s right to be free of
    intentionally inflicted punishment. Lewis v. City of West Palm Beach, 
    561 F.3d 1288
    , 1291–92 (11th Cir. 2009). And it should have been “obvious” to Deputy
    Beatty that the Constitution prohibited him from intentionally turning off his air
    conditioning and leaving Mr. Crocker in the back of his hot patrol car with the sole
    purpose of causing him to suffer. McMillian, 
    88 F.3d at 1565
    . I would therefore
    hold that the District Court erred in granting summary judgment to Deputy Beatty
    on this claim.
    I respectfully dissent.
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