Illinois Department of Revenue v. Hanmi Bank ( 2018 )


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  •                              In the
    United States Court of Appeals
    For the Seventh Circuit
    ____________________
    No. 17-1575
    ILLINOIS DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE,
    Appellant,
    v.
    HANMI BANK and EUGENE CRANE, TRUSTEE,
    Appellees.
    ____________________
    Appeal from the United States Bankruptcy Court for the
    Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division.
    No. 12-49658 — Timothy A. Barnes, Bankruptcy Judge.
    ____________________
    No. 17-2004
    ILLINOIS DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE,
    Appellant,
    v.
    FIRST COMMUNITY FINANCIAL BANK,
    Appellee.
    ____________________
    Appeal from the United States Bankruptcy Court for the
    Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division.
    No. 15-05384 — A. Benjamin Goldgar, Bankruptcy Judge.
    2                                         Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    ____________________
    ARGUED DECEMBER 1, 2017 — DECIDED JULY 9, 2018
    ____________________
    Before BAUER, FLAUM, and ROVNER, Circuit Judges.
    ROVNER, Circuit Judge. The bankrupt businesses in both of
    these consolidated appeals had debts that far exceeded the
    value of their assets. The bankruptcy court authorized the sale
    of the firms’ principal assets (several gasoline service stations
    and a movie theater and café), and those sales qualified as
    bulk sales under Illinois statutes we shall refer to as the Bulk
    Sales Provisions. Among other things, the Bulk Sales Provi-
    sions give the Illinois Department of Revenue (“IDOR”) the
    right to pursue the purchaser in a bulk sale for state taxes
    owed by the seller. However, in order to facilitate sale of the
    debtors’ properties, the bankruptcy court, pursuant to section
    363(f) of the Bankruptcy Code, allowed the sales to proceed
    free and clear of the interests in those properties held by any
    entity other than the bankruptcy estates, including IDOR’s in-
    terest under the Bulk Sales Provisions. 11 U.S.C. § 363(f). This
    meant that IDOR lost its right to impose successor liability on
    the purchasers for the taxes owed by the sellers. Pursuant to
    section 363(e) of the Code, a party whose interest has been re-
    moved from property in this way is entitled to “adequate pro-
    tection,” which typically takes the form of a payment from the
    sale proceeds to compensate the party for the decrease in
    value of its interest. See 
    id. §§ 361,
    363; Precision Indus., Inc. v.
    Qualitech Steel SBQ, LLC, 
    327 F.3d 537
    , 548 (7th Cir. 2003). The
    bankruptcy court in each case below agreed or assumed that
    IDOR was entitled to adequate protection for its interest un-
    der section 363. But the court also went on to conclude that
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                          3
    because the sale proceeds were insufficient to satisfy the
    claims of the senior-most creditors (the banks that held the
    mortgages on the properties), IDOR was entitled to no portion
    of the sale proceeds; to grant IDOR any share in those pro-
    ceeds would be to impermissibly allow it to “jump the queue”
    of creditors. And because there were no other assets available
    from which to compensate junior creditors like IDOR, IDOR
    was left with nothing.
    IDOR contends that the bankruptcy court’s disposition
    fails to account for its authority, which other creditors did not
    enjoy, to pursue not only the debtor but the purchaser of the
    debtors’ property—personally—for unpaid taxes. When the
    bankruptcy court authorized the sale of the debtors’ proper-
    ties in these cases free and clear of IDOR’s interest, it made the
    properties much more attractive to prospective purchasers
    than they otherwise would have been. Consequently, in
    IDOR’s view, the final sale price for the properties necessarily
    included consideration for the removal of IDOR’s interest,
    and it is entitled to a share of the sale proceeds pursuant to
    sections 361 and 363(e) to compensate it accordingly.
    For the reasons that follow, we affirm the bankruptcy
    court’s judgments. We agree with IDOR that the Bulk Sales
    Provisions give it a powerful means of securing payment for
    delinquent taxes that most other creditors lack, and that re-
    moval of IDOR’s interest likely increased the price bidders
    were willing to pay for the debtors’ properties in these cases.
    But assuming that IDOR’s interest is cognizable under section
    363, it has not given us a realistic assessment of the value of
    its interest. IDOR’s position in these appeals is that it is enti-
    tled to a share of the sale proceeds equal to 100 percent of the
    taxes it was authorized to collect from the purchasers, given
    4                                       Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    that it was forced to give up its right to pursue the purchasers
    for those taxes. As we explain, however, we are skeptical of
    the notion that IDOR necessarily would have recovered 100
    percent of the tax delinquency from an informed purchaser;
    and although IDOR might have been able to strike a deal with
    the purchaser and the seller’s senior creditors giving it some
    lesser payment on the outstanding taxes, IDOR has offered no
    evidence to establish what its potential recovery might have
    been. In short, its claims were properly denied for want of ev-
    idence enabling the bankruptcy court to assign a reasonable
    value to its interest for purposes of section 363(e).
    I.
    These appeals involve two different sets of debtors. The
    Elk Grove debtors owned and operated five BP gas stations in
    Elk Grove Village and other Chicago suburbs. Hanmi Bank,
    formerly known as United Central Bank (hereinafter, “UCB”),
    held mortgages on the real properties along with security in-
    terests in the personal property at each location. The Naper-
    ville debtor operated a cinema and adjoining café in the Chi-
    cago suburb of Naperville. First Community Financial Bank
    (“First Community”) held the mortgage on these properties.
    The debtors initially sought relief under Chapter 11 of the
    Bankruptcy Code. In each instance, the debtors’ outstanding
    liabilities substantially exceeded the value of their assets. The
    Elk Grove debtors owed north of $14 million to UCB, and the
    Naperville debtor owed just under $4 million to First Com-
    munity. Both debtors also owed substantial Illinois taxes to
    IDOR: the Elk Grove debtors owed the state more than $1.8
    million in sales, employee withholding, and motor fuel taxes
    (approximately $1.38 million of which was secured by liens
    on the debtors’ properties) and the Naperville debtor owed
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                         5
    nearly $600,000 in sales and withholding taxes (none of which
    was secured by liens). In the Elk Grove proceeding, a trustee
    was appointed at the request of the creditors.
    The Elk Grove trustee and the Naperville debtor both
    sought the bankruptcy court’s approval pursuant to section
    363(b) and (f) of the Bankruptcy Code to sell the debtors’ prin-
    cipal assets—the gas stations and the theater/café—free and
    clear of all liens, claims, encumbrances, and interests held by
    entities other than the estate. In each instance, IDOR con-
    tended that to the extent the court deemed its right to impose
    successor tax liability on the purchaser of the property an “in-
    terest” that could be extinguished pursuant to section 363(f),
    the court should set aside a portion of the sale proceeds suffi-
    cient to satisfy the outstanding tax obligations as “adequate
    protection” for IDOR’s interest pursuant to section 363(e), re-
    gardless of the fact that IDOR’s claims against the debtor were
    junior to those of the banks. In both cases, that request was
    denied.
    In the Elk Grove case, Judge Barnes denied the set-aside
    request but directed the trustee to hold the proceeds of the
    sale subject to a further order of the court, so that IDOR’s
    right, if any, to a share of the sale proceeds could be assessed.
    After the sale of the gas stations closed, yielding net proceeds
    of roughly $5.23 million, UCB asked that its secured claim
    against the estate be allowed and that the full proceeds of the
    sale be turned over to it (recall that the debtors owed UCB
    more than $14 million in total). IDOR objected to UCB’s re-
    quest, insofar as it sought the turnover of all proceeds to UCB,
    and asked that a portion of the proceeds equal to the amount
    of unpaid taxes that IDOR could have collected from the pur-
    chaser pursuant to the Bulk Sales Provisions—roughly $1.53
    6                                               Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    million—be turned over to IDOR first, with the remainder go-
    ing to UCB. 1 IDOR contended that its interest in the sale pro-
    ceeds was effectively superior to UCB’s in view of the fact that
    IDOR had the authority—before the bankruptcy court al-
    lowed the sale free and clear of all interests—to hold the pur-
    chaser of the property personally liable for the unpaid taxes.
    In IDOR’s view, because it was entitled to “adequate protec-
    tion” for its interest pursuant to section 363(e), it was owed
    full recompense for the taxes it was owed.
    Judge Barnes allowed UCB’s claim in full and denied the
    relief that IDOR requested. In re Elk Grove Vill. Petroleum, 
    510 B.R. 594
    (Bankr. N.D. Ill. 2014) (“Elk Grove I”). He determined
    that UCB had a secured claim that exceeded by some $8 mil-
    lion the amount of the sale proceeds; that IDOR had a par-
    tially secured but junior claim of $1.88 million (secured by
    liens to the extent of $1.38 million); that IDOR’s successor lia-
    bility claims under the Bulk Sales Provisions constituted an
    “interest” that could be extinguished in the sale of the gas sta-
    tions pursuant to section 363(f); but that IDOR’s interest had
    not decreased in value by virtue of the sale, such that it would
    be entitled to adequate protection under section 363(e), be-
    cause that interest was inferior to UCB’s security interest both
    before and after the sale. 
    Id. at 603–05.
    Judge Barnes acknowl-
    edged that, by virtue of the court’s free-and-clear order under
    1 The figure of $1.53 million to which IDOR claimed it was entitled was
    less than the total of $1.88 million in unpaid taxes it was owed by the Elk
    Grove debtors. As we discuss below, the Bulk Sales Provisions cap a pur-
    chaser’s liability for the unpaid taxes at the reasonable value of the prop-
    erty, which would normally be reflected in the sales price of the property.
    The taxes owed by one of the five gas stations substantially exceeded the
    sales price for that station. Consequently, as to that station, the purchaser’s
    prospective liability for the delinquent taxes was capped by the sales price.
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                         7
    section 363(f), IDOR had lost the ability to pursue the pur-
    chaser of the property for the unpaid taxes. 
    Id. at 605.
    But
    other creditors with liens on the debtors’ property had like-
    wise lost the ability to enforce those liens against the pur-
    chaser of the property. Had the sale taken place with all such
    liens, encumbrances, and interests in place, IDOR still would
    have taken nothing, the court believed, as a creditor whose
    claims were inferior to those of the bank. 
    Id. (The judge
    did
    not consider IDOR’s right to pursue the purchaser personally
    for the delinquent taxes.) Thus, IDOR’s interest had not, in
    practical terms, decreased in value by virtue of the court’s
    free-and-clear order. “IDOR was out of the money prior to the
    [s]ale and would remain out of the money subsequent to the
    [s]ale, whether or not section 363(f) is applied.” 
    Id. Therefore, IDOR
    was not entitled to adequate protection under section
    363(e) in the form of compensation from the sale proceeds.
    In the Naperville case, Judge Goldgar simply overruled
    the debtor’s request outright. Recall that First Community
    was owed $3.92 million on the loans it had made to the Na-
    perville debtor, and First Community, by virtue of the prom-
    issory notes underlying those loans, had a first-priority secu-
    rity interest in the debtor’s property. IDOR, for its part, had
    an unsecured claim in the amount of $593,000 for unpaid sales
    and withholding taxes. When the debtor sought the court’s
    approval to sell its property, IDOR filed a limited objection to
    the sale, insisting that it was entitled to direct payment from
    the sale proceeds pursuant to section 363(e) as adequate pro-
    tection of its interest under the Bulk Sale Provisions. Absent
    assurance of such payment, IDOR argued, the sale could not
    be approved. Looking to Judge Barnes’ decision in Elk Grove
    I, Judge Goldgar overruled the objection, authorized the sale
    of the debtor’s property, and allowed First Community to
    8                                      Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    take and apply the proceeds (after certain fees and carve-outs)
    to the debt it was owed. In re Naperville Theater, LLC, No. 15 B
    05384, R. 127 at 7, 23. As in the Elk Grove case, IDOR would
    take nothing from the sale proceeds. The Naperville case, like
    the Elk Grove Village case before it, was later converted to a
    Chapter 7 proceeding and a trustee was appointed.
    IDOR appealed in both cases. In the Elk Grove case, Judge
    Blakey vacated the bankruptcy court’s order in part. Ill. Dep’t
    of Revenue v. Elk Grove Vill. Petroleum, 
    541 B.R. 673
    (N.D. Ill.
    2015) (“Elk Grove II”). As the appellees did not dispute the
    point, Judge Blakey assumed that IDOR’s right to impose suc-
    cessor liability on a bulk-sale purchaser for delinquent taxes
    constituted an interest warranting recognition and protection
    pursuant to section 363. 
    Id. at 676.
    He therefore focused on
    whether that interest had any concrete value for which IDOR
    was entitled to protection under section 363(e). Judge Blakey
    noted that the “adequate protection” called for by section
    363(e) is intended to prevent—i.e., compensate for—a de-
    crease in value of the creditor’s interest in property that has
    been extinguished pursuant to section 363(f). 
    Id. at 677
    (citing
    § 361). That decrease is properly calculated by comparing
    what the creditor will recover in bankruptcy where its interest
    in property has been extinguished pursuant to section 363(f)
    with what its recovery would have been had its interest re-
    mained intact. 
    Id. at 678.
    As to the first question, the judge
    agreed that UCB’s interest was superior to that of IDOR and
    the Bulk Sales Provisions did not permit IDOR’s interest to
    jump ahead of UCB in the queue of creditors and have first
    bite at the sale proceeds. 
    Id. But as
    to the second question,
    Judge Blakey was not convinced that IDOR again would have
    been left “out of the money” (as Judge Barnes had assumed)
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                              9
    had the sale taken place subject to IDOR’s interest. Notwith-
    standing the fact that UCB had a superior claim to the sale
    proceeds themselves, the Bulk Sale Provisions gave IDOR the
    right to look beyond those proceeds and pursue the purchaser
    personally for the unpaid taxes. Thus, allowing the sale free
    and clear of IDOR’s interest indeed may have caused its inter-
    est to decrease in value, as it eliminated IDOR’s ability to hold
    the purchaser personally liable for the taxes. To that extent,
    IDOR might be entitled to compensation. 
    Id. at 679.
    The court
    remanded the matter for development of the record and res-
    olution of two issues: (1) what IDOR would have recovered
    from the purchaser had the service stations not been sold free
    and clear of its interest under the Bulk Sales Provisions; and
    (2) by what means IDOR could be compensated for the value
    of this interest pursuant to section 363(e) given, inter alia, the
    relative priority of UCB’s liens on the property and the deple-
    tion of estate assets. Ill. Dep’t of Revenue v. Elk Grove Vill. Petro-
    leum, LLC, 
    2015 WL 8481961
    , at *4 (N.D. Ill. Dec. 9, 2015) (“Elk
    Grove III”).
    On remand, the bankruptcy court again denied IDOR re-
    lief upon addressing the two issues the district court had
    tasked it to consider. In re Elk Grove Vill. Petroleum, LLC, 
    562 B.R. 708
    (Bankr. N.D. Ill. 2016) (“Elk Grove IV”). In valuing
    IDOR’s interest, Judge Barnes drew a distinction between the
    calculable value and realizable value of the interest. The inter-
    est had a nominal, calculable value of $1.53 million—i.e., the
    amount that IDOR theoretically could collect from the pur-
    chaser pursuant to the Bulk Sales Provisions, see n.1, supra—
    but in the judge’s view, the realizable value of the interest was
    effectively zero, as there was no realistic possibility that IDOR
    would ever have been able to collect on the unpaid taxes not-
    withstanding its rights vis-à-vis the purchaser. So far as the
    10                                      Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    record revealed, the purchaser of the gas stations was a spe-
    cial-purpose entity with no assets other than the purchased
    stations themselves; so, apart from waiting to see if the sta-
    tions turned a profit in the future, there would be nothing
    other than the properties themselves to which IDOR could
    look as a source of payment. 
    Id. at 719
    n.11. And if the stations
    had been sold without a section 363(f) free-and-clear order,
    leaving IDOR’s interest intact, then it was fair to assume that
    UCB’s interest as the debtors’ lender also would have re-
    mained intact. 
    Id. at 718–19.
    Because the purchase price for the
    stations did not come close to paying off the debt to UCB, and
    its interest was senior to that of IDOR, UCB as the senior
    lienholder would have a superior claim against any funds the
    purchaser had set aside on instructions from IDOR to account
    for the delinquent taxes as well as a superior right to enforce
    its liens on the purchaser’s sole asset—the stations them-
    selves. 
    Id. at 720.
    Once again, IDOR, as the junior creditor,
    would be left with no source of payment for the unpaid taxes.
    Given that IDOR was likely to recover nothing regardless of
    the operation of section 363(f), there was no need to consider
    how, logistically, IDOR could be given adequate protection in
    the form of cash compensation pursuant to section 363(e); its
    interest had not been diminished as a result of the court’s free-
    and-clear order. 
    Id. IDOR had
    already been given all the pro-
    tection to which it was entitled by virtue of the court’s sale
    order, which allowed IDOR’s interest, such as it was, to follow
    the sale proceeds. 
    Id. at 720–21.
    To the extent IDOR was seek-
    ing payment from those proceeds, it was asking the court to
    reorder the creditor queue and give IDOR a first-priority sta-
    tus which the law did not allow:
    Nothing in the Sale Order ensured a recovery on
    the preserved interests in the Proceeds. They
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                                 11
    must still be weighed against the priorities of all
    parties whose interests were also preserved; in
    this case, the priority of the UCB liens that were
    also attached to the Proceeds. By arguing that
    the court must permit IDOR a recovery on the
    preserved interests above that afforded UCB,
    IDOR attempts to use sections 361 and 363(e) to
    afford the IDOR Claims a step up in priority. …
    Had Congress wanted to upset the Bankruptcy
    Code priority schemes in this respect, it could
    have done so. But nothing in sections 361 or
    363(e) has that effect. Had the court found real-
    izable value for the Successor Liability Interest
    outside of bankruptcy, the court would none-
    theless be forced to conclude that, under the
    facts of this case, IDOR has identified no bank-
    ruptcy source of recovery for the same.
    
    Id. at 722.
        In the Naperville case, Judge Der-Yeghiayan likewise or-
    dered a remand for a determination as to the value of IDOR’s
    interest. In re Naperville Theater, LLC, 
    2016 WL 930659
    (N.D. Ill.
    Mar. 10, 2016). In the absence of a live dispute on the point,
    the court assumed that IDOR’s rights under the Bulk Sales
    Provisions constituted a cognizable interest under section
    363(e) and (f). 2 Following Judge Blakey’s decision in Elk Grove
    2 Judge Der-Yeghiayan assumed that because Judge Goldgar had adopted
    Judge Barnes’ decision in Elk Grove I, he necessarily agreed that IDOR had
    an interest that was cognizable and entitled to adequate protection under
    section 363(e). Naperville Theater, 
    2016 WL 930659
    , at *2. Judge Goldgar
    would later clarify, however, that he had not meant to hold that IDOR had
    a protectable interest, but rather had “passed [the issue] by,” as IDOR’s
    12                                            Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    II, Judge Der-Yeghiayan concluded that Judge Goldgar had
    improperly placed the value of IDOR’s interest at zero, which
    did not account for IDOR’s right to pursue the purchaser of
    the debtor’s property personally for the unpaid taxes. 
    Id. at *3.
    It remained for the bankruptcy court to ascertain what value,
    if any, to place on that right, which was extinguished with the
    sale of the debtor’s assets. 
    Id. The court
    left open the question
    whether IDOR was entitled to any compensation for its inter-
    est, believing it “premature” to reach that issue until such
    time as the bankruptcy court had determined what value to
    assign to IDOR’s interest. 
    Id. at *2.
        On remand, Judge Goldgar, like his colleague Judge
    Barnes, concluded that IDOR’s interest had no realizable
    value and that, consequently, IDOR was not entitled to any
    compensation for the extinguishment of its interest. Judge
    Goldgar had convened an evidentiary hearing in order to give
    IDOR the opportunity to put on evidence as to the value of its
    interest. IDOR presented testimony from a representative of
    the buyer of the debtor’s theater and café, who testified in es-
    sence that the buyer would not have purchased the estate’s
    assets without the removal of the interests of IDOR and other
    creditors. IDOR thus reasoned that because the extinguish-
    ment of its interest (along with those of other creditors) made
    the sale of the debtor’s assets possible, it was entitled to com-
    pensation for its interest. But in Judge Goldgar’s view, the rel-
    evant question was whether IDOR could, ultimately, have re-
    covered on its interest, and there was “a total failure of proof
    on that point.” In re Naperville Theater, LLC, No. 15 B 05384, R.
    195 at 19. In other words, there was no proof as to the financial
    claim could be resolved without deciding that issue. In re Naperville Thea-
    ter, LLC, No. 15 B 05384, R. 195 at 14.
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                         13
    status, assets, or resources of either the entity that had pur-
    chased the theater and café from the debtor (Brixmor Hold-
    ings 6SPE, LLC), or the entity that had in turn purchased
    those properties from Brixmor (Star Theater). 
    Id. Given the
    lack of proof that IDOR’s interest had any value, the inevita-
    ble conclusion was that there was no decrease in the worth of
    its interest and therefore IDOR had no entitlement to compen-
    sation pursuant to section 363(e). 
    Id. at 20.
    “As far as the evi-
    dence showed, the Department’s successor liability claim was
    worthless.” 
    Id. at 21.
        IDOR again appealed in both cases. We granted the par-
    ties’ joint request pursuant to Bankruptcy Rule 8006(g) for
    leave to appeal the adverse judgments of the bankruptcy
    court directly to this court.
    II.
    The essential question posed in these appeals is whether
    IDOR received adequate protection for its interest in the debt-
    ors’ properties when those properties were sold, with the
    bankruptcy court’s permission, free and clear of IDOR’s inter-
    est in compensation for unpaid taxes. The bankruptcy courts
    concluded, in essence, that because IDOR had not shown that
    the purchasers had assets apart from the purchased proper-
    ties from which IDOR could have collected the unpaid taxes
    had the sales taken place with its interest (and its right to pur-
    sue the purchasers personally) intact, its interest had not de-
    creased in value by virtue of the courts’ section 363(f) orders,
    and IDOR was therefore not entitled to any remuneration for
    its interest under section 363(e). The thrust of IDOR’s appeals
    is that because its ability to hold the purchasers personally li-
    able for the taxes had real value, as the district judges recog-
    14                                             Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    nized, the purchase price for the debtors’ properties neces-
    sarily included some amount of consideration for the removal
    of IDOR’s interest. As IDOR sees things, then, it does not mat-
    ter whether the purchasers had other assets apart from the
    purchased properties from which IDOR might have sought to
    collect the delinquent taxes. The purchasers have already paid
    something for (the removal of) IDOR’s interest, and IDOR is
    entitled to that portion of the sale proceeds. 3
    Section 363(f) of the Bankruptcy Code authorizes the trus-
    tee to sell property of the estate free and clear of any interest
    held by an entity other than the estate itself. Needless to say,
    removing the encumbrances on estate property makes the
    property more attractive to potential purchasers, thereby
    boosting the sale price and maximizing the recovery for cred-
    itors of the estate. See Precision 
    Indus., supra
    , 327 F.3d at 548;
    Douglas v. Stamco, 363 F. App’x 100, 102–03 (2d Cir. 2010)
    (non-precedential decision); Diogo-Carreau v. Am. Home
    Mortg. Acceptance, Inc., 
    167 F. Supp. 3d 258
    , 263 (D. Mass.
    2016); Elk Grove 
    II, 541 B.R. at 676
    ; see generally Toibb v. Radloff,
    
    501 U.S. 157
    , 163, 
    111 S. Ct. 2197
    , 2201 (1991) (“Chapter 11 …
    3 IDOR did not waive this argument, as the banks suggest it did. To the
    extent that the district court rejected the argument in each instance below,
    IDOR was not required to take an immediate appeal to this court in order
    to preserve it. In both cases, the district court remanded the matter to the
    bankruptcy court for further consideration as to the value of IDOR’s inter-
    est for purposes of section 363(e). This was by no means a ministerial task
    on the part of the bankruptcy court, and so the judgments were not final
    at the time the cases were remanded. See, e.g., In re Ferguson, 
    834 F.3d 795
    ,
    798-800 (7th Cir. 2016). IDOR was thus entitled (indeed, required) to wait
    until the remands were resolved before pursuing the issue in this court.
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                           15
    embodies the general Code policy of maximizing the value of
    the bankruptcy estate”).
    However, section 363(e) qualifies this power in providing
    that, upon the request of an entity holding an interest in the
    property to be sold, the court “shall prohibit or condition such
    … sale … as is necessary to provide adequate protection of
    such interest.” Section 361(1) in turn provides that when ade-
    quate protection is called for under section 363, it may be pro-
    vided in the way of cash payments compensating the affected
    entity for the decrease in the value of its interest. In short, an
    entity whose lien or other interest is removed from property
    in order to facilitate its sale is entitled to compensation for
    whatever loss the removal causes the entity. See United Sav.
    Ass’n of Tex. v. Timbers of Inwood Forest Assocs., Ltd., 
    484 U.S. 365
    , 370–71, 
    108 S. Ct. 626
    , 630 (1988). Typically, the entity is
    compensated from the proceeds of the sale. See Precision In-
    
    dus., 327 F.3d at 548
    ; In re Nov. 2005 Land Investors, LLC, 636 F.
    App’x 723, 726 (9th Cir. 2016) (non-precedential decision).
    As a threshold matter, we assume without deciding that
    IDOR’s authority to impose successor liability for unpaid
    taxes on the purchaser in a bulk sale constitutes a cognizable
    “interest” in a debtor’s property for purposes of section 363.
    See In re Elk Grove 
    I, 510 B.R. at 603
    , and cases cited therein; see
    generally Precision 
    Indus., 327 F.3d at 545
    (indicating that the
    term should be construed broadly). Judge Barnes expressly
    held in IDOR’s favor on this 
    point, 510 B.R. at 603
    , although
    Judge Goldgar found it unnecessary to decide the issue, see
    
    n.2, supra
    . The pertinent fact for our purposes, however, is
    that in neither case did anyone contest the point on appeal to
    the district court, leading both Judge Blakey and Judge Der-
    16                                            Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    Yeghiayan to consider the point either undisputed or unnec-
    essary to resolve. Elk Grove 
    II, 541 B.R. at 676
    ; Naperville Thea-
    ter, 
    2016 WL 930659
    , at *2. Although the Chapter 7 Trustee at-
    tempts to resurrect the issue in this court, it is too late in the
    day for the parties to reopen this issue. We shall proceed on
    the assumption that IDOR had an interest that was entitled to
    adequate protection under section 363(e). 4
    What the bankruptcy court was thus required to resolve
    was the extent to which the value of IDOR’s interest under the
    Bulk Sales Provisions decreased when, in each case, the court
    permitted the properties to be sold free and clear of that inter-
    est. That assessment requires a review of the relevant provi-
    sions of Illinois law. See Barnhill v. Johnson, 
    503 U.S. 393
    , 397–
    98, 
    112 S. Ct. 1386
    , 1389 (1992); Butner v. United States, 
    440 U.S. 48
    , 55, 
    99 S. Ct. 914
    , 918 (1979); Hoornstra v. United States, 
    969 F.2d 530
    , 532 (7th Cir. 1992); Bjork v. United States, 
    486 F.2d 934
    , 937 (7th Cir. 1973).
    IDOR’s interest rests on the Bulk Sale Provisions found in
    section 902(d) of the Illinois Income Tax Act, 35 ILCS 5/101 et
    seq. and section 5j of the Retailers Occupation Tax Act, 35 ILCS
    120/1 et seq. These provisions apply when a taxpayer sells the
    4 We may also assume, contrary to UCB’s suggestion, that the Bulk Sales
    Provisions would apply (absent a section 363(f) order) when the property
    is being sold by a trustee in bankruptcy subject to the bankruptcy court’s
    permission and oversight. UCB has advanced this argument largely as a
    matter of policy rather than statutory interpretation. The Bulk Sales Pro-
    visions themselves do not exempt sales taking place in the course of bank-
    ruptcy proceedings, and although the trustee may not literally be the “tax-
    payer” to which these provisions refer, he certainly acts on the taxpayer’s
    behalf. In any case, given the other grounds on which we dispose of
    IDOR’s appeals, we need not reach this contention.
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                         17
    majority of its assets (including real property) outside of the
    normal course of business, as in a liquidation. Pursuant to
    those provisions, the purchaser in a bulk sale must give notice
    of the purchase to IDOR. If there are outstanding state taxes
    owed by the seller, IDOR may within ten business days issue
    a “stop order” instructing the purchaser to reserve a portion
    of the purchase monies sufficient to cover the estimated
    amount of outstanding taxes owed by the business. IDOR
    then has another 60 business days to calculate the actual
    amount of taxes owed and to issue a revised stop order with
    the updated tax bill and directing the purchaser to continue
    holding in reserve the portion of the purchase price set aside
    previously for unpaid taxes. If the seller thereafter fails to pay
    the outstanding taxes, IDOR may issue a demand to the pur-
    chaser to turn over the withheld funds, and the purchaser
    “shall pay” to the Department the amount so withheld from
    the purchase price. A purchaser who fails to give IDOR notice
    of a bulk sale, or fails to withhold the amount specified in a
    stop order, or fails to turn over the withheld funds at IDOR’s
    demand becomes personally liable to IDOR for the amount of
    unpaid taxes owed by the seller up to the reasonable value of
    the property acquired by the purchaser. See 35 ILCS 5/902(d);
    35 ILCS 120/5j; 86 Ill. Admin. Code §130.1701.
    The Bulk Sale Provisions give IDOR a unique and power-
    ful weapon in the pursuit of delinquent taxes, with important
    consequences for what and how a purchaser would pay for
    property affected by those provisions. Faced with the pro-
    spect of being held personally liable for a seller’s unpaid
    taxes, a reasonable purchaser would take steps of its own to
    make certain that unwelcome event never came to pass.
    18                                      Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    In this regard, it is important to note that setting aside a
    portion of the purchase money in compliance with a stop or-
    der from IDOR does not by itself ensure either that IDOR will
    be paid from those funds or that the purchaser will be dis-
    charged from liability to IDOR. A business with a significant
    tax liability to IDOR is likely to have other debts as well; and
    the business’s other creditors may have a superior claim to the
    sale proceeds—including any portion of the proceeds the pur-
    chaser set aside at IDOR’s direction. IDOR’s power to compel
    a purchaser to reserve a portion of the proceeds for the De-
    partment’s benefit does not isolate the reserved funds from
    the claims of other creditors. See Bjork v. United 
    States, supra
    ,
    486 F.2d at 938 (bulk sale statute authorizing IDOR to issue
    stop order “does not purport to vest ownership of the held
    fund in the State”). A purchaser faced with competing claims
    to the set-aside funds can, of course, file an interpleader action
    and ask a court to decide who has the superior claim to the
    funds. See 28 U.S.C. § 1335; Fed. R. Civ. P. 22; 735 ILCS 5/2-
    409; see also, e.g., 
    Bjork, 486 F.2d at 939
    (concluding in inter-
    pleader suit that federal Internal Revenue Service had supe-
    rior claim to withheld funds notwithstanding stop order is-
    sued by IDOR). But, as IDOR asserts, setting aside and inter-
    pleading the funds does not necessarily discharge the pur-
    chaser’s obligations under the Bulk Sales Provisions. In the
    event the interpleader court determines that another creditor
    has a superior claim to the funds, the purchaser, under a
    broad reading of the Bulk Sales Provisions, may nonetheless
    be held liable to IDOR for failing to withhold and pay those
    reserved funds to IDOR.
    Courts in other jurisdictions have concluded that a bulk
    sales stop order requires a purchaser not simply to reserve a
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                            19
    portion of the purchase money sufficient to cover the out-
    standing tax liability but to do so for the benefit of the state tax-
    ing authority. These courts construe bulk sale provisions to
    impose essentially strict liability on the purchaser for taxes
    left unpaid by the property’s seller, such that if another cred-
    itor lays claim to the set-aside funds and the purchaser is com-
    pelled to turn over the funds to that creditor, the purchaser
    remains liable to the state for the outstanding tax debt. See
    Schnyder v. State Bd. of Equalization, 
    124 Cal. Rptr. 2d 571
    , 577–
    79 (Cal. Ct. App. 2002) (holding purchasers liable to state for
    unpaid taxes after court in interpleader action had deter-
    mined that IRS had superior claim to funds withheld pursu-
    ant to stop order); Red, White & Blue Transmission, Inc. v. Dep’t
    of Revenue Servs., 
    690 A.2d 437
    , 439–40 (Conn. Super. Ct. 1994)
    (transmitting funds to trustee for resolution of competing
    creditor claims does not insulate purchaser from liability to
    state). Although IDOR does not cite, and we have not found,
    any Illinois case law on this point, we may assume (as a pur-
    chaser might) that Illinois courts likely would follow this line
    of authority. The Illinois statutes themselves state explicitly
    that in the event the seller of the property has failed to pay the
    outstanding taxes and IDOR has issued timely instructions to
    the purchaser to withhold funds for the tax delinquency, the
    purchaser “shall pay to the Department the amount so with-
    held from the purchase price.” 35 ILCS 5/902(d) (emphasis
    added); see also 35 ILCS 120/5j (nearly identical wording).
    IDOR’s letter rulings reflect the same view. See IDOR Letter
    No. 96-0114, 
    1996 WL 699622
    , at *1 (Aug. 26, 1996) (“If the
    Transferee fails to report to the Department, withhold the req-
    uisite amount, or pay over the withheld amount when required,
    the Transferee will become personally liable for the outstand-
    ing state tax liabilities of the Transferor, up to the amount of
    20                                               Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    the value of the property transferred.”) (emphasis added);
    IDOR Letter No. 90-0406, 
    1990 WL 207605
    , at *1 (Jul. 5, 1990)
    (same); IDOR Letter No. 87-0624, 
    1987 WL 53814
    , at *1 (Aug.
    19, 1987) (same); but see also 2 Ill. Admin. Code § 1200.110(a)
    (IDOR general information letters do not constitute agency
    policy and do not bind IDOR); 
    id. § 1200.120(c)
    (IDOR private
    letter rulings only binding as to taxpayer that requested rul-
    ing). 5
    5 The banks have asserted that a purchaser would be discharged from lia-
    bility in an interpleader action—in other words, that the purchaser would
    have satisfied its obligation to IDOR by withholding the requisite funds
    pursuant to the stop order, interpleading the funds, and allowing a court
    to decide, as between IDOR and the seller’s other creditors, who had the
    superior claim to the withheld funds. Banks Br. 25-26. But this assumes
    that the purchaser is a neutral stakeholder with no independent liability
    to IDOR. See John Hancock Life Ins. Co. (U.S.A.) v. Jacobs, 
    2014 WL 587521
    ,
    at *1 (D. Nev. Feb. 13, 2014); Metro. Life Ins. Co. v. Mitchell, 
    966 F. Supp. 2d 97
    , 103 (E.D.N.Y. 2013). Arguably, however, the purchaser would not be a
    neutral stakeholder. As we have noted, the Bulk Sales Provisions on their
    face impose a duty on the purchaser not simply to withhold funds from
    the purchase price, but to turn over those funds to IDOR in the event that
    the seller does not make good on its outstanding tax obligations. Assum-
    ing that Illinois courts would follow cases like Schnyder, the purchaser
    would remain personally liable to IDOR if it filed an interpleader suit and
    the court presiding over that suit determined that the bank or another
    creditor of the seller had a superior claim to the withheld funds; in that
    event, the purchaser would have “failed” to remit the withheld funds to
    IDOR. See 
    Schnyder, 124 Cal. Rptr. at 577
    (by filing interpleader action,
    purchasers failed to “withhold” funds from the purchase monies as re-
    quired by bulk sales statute, in sense that they did not make withheld
    funds available to state agency for satisfaction of outstanding tax liability).
    Put another way, an interpleader action may relieve the purchaser of hav-
    ing to decide who has the superior claim to the withheld funds. See, e.g.,
    United States v. Federative Republic of Brazil, 
    748 F.3d 86
    , 95 (2d Cir. 2014);
    Bank of N.Y. Mellon Trust Co., N.A. v. Telos CLO 1006-1 Ltd., 274 F. Supp. 3d
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                                   21
    Against this backdrop, it is not hard to appreciate IDOR’s
    position that it would be worth something to a bulk-sale pur-
    chaser to be able to make its purchase free and clear of IDOR’s
    interest and thus have no worry about successor liability—
    and that the sale price for the debtors’ properties in these
    cases necessarily included a premium for the removal of that
    interest. The question is what value to place on the removal.
    IDOR appears at times to assume that, but for the bankruptcy
    court’s free-and-clear orders, it likely would have recovered
    the entirety of the taxes owed given its ability to pursue the
    purchasers personally. For that reason, IDOR places a corre-
    spondingly high value on the removal of its interest and the
    compensation to which it is entitled under section 363(e): 100
    percent of the outstanding tax debt (up to the amount of the
    sale price). But we are dubious of the notion that IDOR was
    likely to have recovered all of the outstanding taxes but for
    the removal of its interest; and for purposes of placing a value
    on IDOR’s interest for purposes of section 363(e), we must
    consider what IDOR realistically could have recovered from
    the purchaser.
    We may deal with IDOR’s argument on its own terms
    without attempting to resolve the conflict it poses with the
    priority scheme reflected in the Bankruptcy Code. See 11
    U.S.C. § 507. There is no dispute that IDOR’s claims against
    the debtors were inferior to those of the banks and that, given
    the size of the banks’ claims vis-à-vis the proceeds of the prop-
    191, 214 (S.D.N.Y. 2017); Amalgamated Trust & Sav. Bank v. Silha, 
    460 N.E.2d 372
    , 377 (Ill. App. Ct. 1984). But it does not necessarily relieve the pur-
    chaser of its independent liability to IDOR for the outstanding taxes under
    the Bulk Sales Provisions.
    22                                             Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    erty sales, IDOR ordinarily would be “out of the money.” Ac-
    cording IDOR a right to claim any portion of the sale proceeds
    would, in a real sense, permit IDOR to jump the queue of
    creditors and grant IDOR monetary protection for its interest
    at the expense of other creditors. The banks describe this as
    awarding IDOR a post hoc priming lien that permits IDOR to
    assume first place in the creditor queue. 6 We do not take this
    prospect lightly. See, e.g., In re R.J. Dooley Realty, Inc., 
    2010 WL 2076959
    , at *7 (Bankr. S.D.N.Y. May 21, 2010) (criticizing no-
    tion that debtor’s tenant might be entitled to adequate protec-
    tion under section 363(e) given sale of debtor’s property free
    and clear of tenant’s leasehold interest, as reimbursement
    from sale proceeds would permit tenant to “catapult … ahead
    of its position behind secured, administrative, and priority
    unsecured creditors, in complete contravention of the priori-
    ties of the Bankruptcy Code”).
    What distinguished IDOR from other creditors, however,
    was its right to look beyond the debtor’s assets and to hold
    the purchasers of those assets personally liable for the taxes it
    was owed. To that extent, the bankruptcy court’s free-and-
    clear orders arguably deprived IDOR of a power and interest
    that no other creditor possessed. So arguably IDOR is not so
    6 Whatever other rights the bulk sale provisions convey to IDOR, they do
    not permit IDOR’s claim to the proceeds of a bulk sale to take priority over
    the superior claims of other creditors. “Nothing in this Section shall be
    construed to give the Department a preference over the rights of any bona
    fide purchaser, holder of a security interest, mechanics lienholder, mort-
    gagee, or judgment lien creditor arising prior to the filing of a regular no-
    tice of lien. …” 35 ILCS 5/1103(a); 35 ILCS 120/5a. In this respect, the bulk
    sale provisions are consistent with other provisions of Illinois law. See 810
    ILCS 5/9-322(a)(1) (security interests rank according to priority in time or
    perfection).
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                       23
    much demanding permission to cut ahead of other creditors
    as it is insisting on recognition that it had a unique interest
    that no other creditor had and which extended beyond the
    corpus of the bankruptcy estate. Put another way, to the ex-
    tent the price the purchaser paid for the debtor’s property in-
    deed does reflect a premium for the removal of IDOR’s right
    to impose successor liability for the taxes on the purchaser,
    that consideration, whatever it may be, is attributable to IDOR
    rather than any asset of the estate. We shall therefore assume
    without deciding that a court could place a value on IDOR’s
    right and compensate IDOR accordingly from the proceeds of
    the section 363 sale, even if that would reduce the recovery to
    other, more senior creditors.
    But the question, again, is what value to place on IDOR’s
    right to hold a purchaser personally liable for unpaid taxes.
    Although we can find no fault in the abstract with IDOR’s the-
    ory as to the unique value of its interest, the notion that it
    stood to recover 100% of its claim for unpaid taxes but for the
    bankruptcy court’s free-and-clear orders runs into several
    pragmatic obstacles. Inside or outside of bankruptcy, the
    seller, its creditors, and prospective purchasers all would be
    cognizant of IDOR’s right to pursue a purchaser for unpaid
    taxes. No reasonable, informed purchaser would agree to sale
    terms that left it unprotected against IDOR; and for their part,
    the banks, as the debtors’ senior-most creditors, would not
    agree to any sale scenario in which IDOR stood to recover
    100% of its claim from the purchase money at the banks’ ex-
    pense.
    A prudent purchaser in a bulk sale would take protective
    measures over and above complying with a stop order in or-
    der to shield itself from personal liability to IDOR. A buyer
    24                                       Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    can always, for example, insert a clause in the purchase agree-
    ment requiring the seller to pay the delinquent taxes (and pro-
    duce proof that it has done so) and/or to hold the buyer harm-
    less for any liability to IDOR. But assuming that the seller
    lacks the resources to clear the tax debt itself, the buyer alter-
    natively might structure the purchase agreement in such a
    way as to expressly reserve a portion of the purchase money
    for the (exclusive) benefit of IDOR in order to satisfy the tax
    liability and thereby insulate the reserved funds from the
    claims of other creditors—even those whose claims are senior
    to those of IDOR. See 
    Hoornstra, supra
    , 969 F.2d at 533–34
    (where purchase agreement called for portion of purchase
    money to be placed in escrow and conditioned payment to
    seller on satisfaction of outstanding tax liabilities, and IDOR
    issued timely stop order once notified of sale, seller did not
    acquire beneficial interest in reserved funds that would per-
    mit IRS as senior lienholder to take reserved funds ahead of
    IDOR as it had in Bjorn). Alternatively, the purchaser might
    insist that the price of the property be reduced to account for
    the risk that complying with the stop order might not be
    enough to protect the purchaser from being held personally
    liable to IDOR. 7
    IDOR might be indifferent to such measures, as none of
    them would undermine its ability to collect the unpaid taxes,
    but the debtors’ senior creditors—here, the banks—surely
    would not be indifferent. In any case where a debtor’s assets
    are insufficient to cover its debts, a reduction in the purchase
    7 Or the purchaser might simply walk away from the transaction. See
    
    Schnyder, 124 Cal. Rptr. at 579
    .
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                        25
    price or segregation of purchase funds for the sole benefit of
    IDOR will decrease a senior creditor’s recovery in a situation
    where that creditor already faces substantial losses. And in
    these cases, the banks were not without their own weapon to
    prevent IDOR from obtaining recompense at their expense:
    the ability to foreclose on the properties.
    One of the few points of agreement among the parties is
    that a foreclosure does not trigger the Bulk Sales Provisions.
    See 86 Ill. Admin. Code § 130.1701(g)(3) (“A repossession of
    equipment and inventory by a lender upon default by a bor-
    rower does not constitute a transfer within the meaning of the
    Bulk Sales provisions of the Act.”); IDOR Letter No. 11-0096,
    
    2011 WL 7014975
    , at *4 (Dec. 7, 2011) (“if the successor does
    no more than repossess or foreclose on property that is the
    subject of a note and mortgage or security interest, we do not
    believe that the situation is subject to the bulk sales reporting
    requirements because no ‘sale or transfer’ within the statutory
    meaning has occurred”); IDOR Letter No. 87-215, 
    1987 WL 53678
    , at *2 (Aug. 26, 1987) (“The Department has a standing
    policy of not enforcing either [bulk sales] statute in judicial
    and non-judicial foreclosure actions.”); IDOR Br. 34 n.11
    (“While the regulation [§ 130.1701(g)(3)] refers to the repos-
    session or foreclosures of personal property, IDOR in practice
    extends it to the foreclosure of realty.”); IDOR Br. 31–32 n. 8
    (“IDOR does not assert successor liability under the Bulk
    Sales Provisions in federal foreclosure cases just as it does not
    do so in state foreclosures”). Thus, if the banks had decided
    to foreclose on the properties, there would have been no need
    to set aside funds for the taxes owed to IDOR and IDOR
    would have had no right to pursue the banks for the outstand-
    ing tax debt. It would be as if the properties had not changed
    hands at all. By virtue of their foreclosure authority, the banks
    26                                             Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    thus had the power to veto any sale terms that favored IDOR
    at the expense of the banks. 8
    Of course, foreclosure comes with significant costs and
    can ultimately reduce the net recovery to a bank once it dis-
    poses of the property. IDOR’s able counsel therefore was no
    doubt correct when he asserted at oral argument that the
    power to foreclose is one the banks will be reluctant to use.
    But when, as in these cases, the taxes owed to IDOR run into
    the millions of dollars, we doubt that a lender would hesitate
    to use (or at least threaten) foreclosure in order to prevent
    IDOR from skimming a substantial portion of the sale pro-
    ceeds for itself and to maximize its own recovery. 9
    Given that the banks and IDOR both have the means to
    block a sale that does not adequately address their respective
    interests in compensation, a compromise as to the allocation
    of sale proceeds is likely the only way that a bulk sale would
    proceed in a case where the seller’s assets fall short of making
    whole even the senior-most creditor, let alone that creditor
    and IDOR both. A compromise, of course, would entail the
    bank agreeing to let IDOR, notwithstanding its status as a jun-
    ior creditor, take some portion of the sale proceeds in ex-
    change for releasing the purchaser from successor liability for
    unpaid taxes, and IDOR agreeing to accept something less
    than 100 percent of the amount that the Bulk Sales Provisions
    8  If the property owner were in bankruptcy, the bank of course would
    have to ask the bankruptcy court to lift the automatic stay in order to allow
    it to pursue the foreclosure in state court.
    9 We are told, for example, that the taxes owed by one of the five Elk Grove
    stations exceeded the sales price for that station by a multiple of three. So
    any arrangement that prioritized payment of the sale proceeds to IDOR
    would have left the bank with nothing as to that station.
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                         27
    would allow it to collect. We can be confident that these types
    of deals are more than an abstract possibility. IDOR’s own
    counsel confirmed at oral argument that it negotiates compro-
    mises with lenders on a regular basis.
    This is where the wheels come off the wagon of IDOR’s
    argument. Recall that for purposes of determining the com-
    pensation putatively owed to IDOR under section 363, section
    361(1) directs us to consider how much the value of IDOR’s
    interest decreased as a result of the bankruptcy courts’ free-
    and-clear orders. IDOR’s go-for-broke position insists that it
    should be reimbursed for the full amount of the tax delin-
    quency it was authorized to collect from the purchasers. But,
    for the reasons we have set out, it is not at all likely that IDOR
    in fact would have recovered those taxes in full from the pur-
    chasers in these cases. It might have struck a deal with the
    banks and/or the purchasers to recover something less than
    100 percent of the taxes, but at no point in the proceedings has
    IDOR offered any evidence, or articulated any methodology,
    by which we could determine how much it might have recov-
    ered in such a deal and in turn the extent to which the value
    of its interest decreased when the bankruptcy court lifted its
    interest from the debtors’ properties.
    In its reply brief, IDOR suggests that the likelihood of its
    being able to collect the delinquent taxes from a purchaser is
    irrelevant to the value of its interest and that the bankruptcy
    court was therefore wrong to consider, for example, what re-
    sources, if any, the purchasers in these cases had available to
    pay the taxes (IDOR Reply at 23–24); but we do not see why
    this is so. Sections 361(1) and 363(e) call for a creditor to be
    compensated for the decrease in value of its interest. If, as a
    practical matter, IDOR’s right to impose successor liability on
    28                                      Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004
    the purchaser was worth nothing, or worth something less
    than the full amount of the taxes IDOR was owed, then as a
    logical matter that fact necessarily informs the determination
    of whether and by how much the value of IDOR’s interest de-
    creased by virtue of the bankruptcy court’s free-and-clear or-
    ders and of what compensation IDOR is owed for the de-
    crease. See, e.g., In re Martin, 
    761 F.2d 472
    , 475–78 (8th Cir.
    1985). As Judge Blakey pointed out, an interest that is cogniza-
    ble under section 363(e) and (f) may be worth nothing, in prac-
    tical terms, in which case the interest-holder is entitled to no
    compensation pursuant to section 363(e) and 361(1). See Elk
    Grove 
    II, 541 B.R. at 678
    (collecting cases).
    We have not forgotten IDOR’s contention that the pur-
    chasers have already paid a premium for the removal of
    IDOR’s interest, such that there is no need to consider what
    IDOR realistically might have been able to demand from a
    purchaser and whether the purchaser had the means to pay
    it; but we are still faced with a problem of valuation. What-
    ever premium the purchasers might have paid for the re-
    moval of IDOR’s interest would have been informed (and dis-
    counted) by the likelihood of IDOR being able to collect on its
    interest. Given the realities we have discussed, it is not at all
    likely that any premium the purchasers may have paid came
    close to the figure that IDOR nominally was entitled to collect
    from the purchasers under the Bulk Sales Provisions.
    As should be clear by now, we are placing the responsibil-
    ity for the failure of proof as to the value of IDOR’s interest on
    IDOR itself. No issue has been raised in these appeals as to
    the proper allocation of the burden of proof on this point.
    IDOR itself notes several times in its brief that the bankruptcy
    court in both cases concluded that IDOR failed to sustain its
    Nos. 17-1575 & 17-2004                                        29
    burden of proof to establish the value of its successor liability
    interest. IDOR Br. 7, 22, 38. Although IDOR faults the conclu-
    sion that the value of its interest was not proven, it does not
    quarrel with the notion that the burden to establish that value
    belonged to it. We note that there is at least some authority
    that for purposes of section 363(e), a creditor claiming the
    right to adequate protection bears only the minimal threshold
    burden of establishing the validity, priority, or extent of its
    interest, whereas the debtor (or trustee) must shoulder the in-
    itial burden of establishing what constitutes adequate protec-
    tion vis-à-vis that interest—including the value of the credi-
    tor’s interest and any decrease therein. See In re AMR Corp.,
    
    490 B.R. 470
    , 477 (S.D.N.Y. 2013); 11 U.S.C. § 363(p). But we
    need not explore the point, as IDOR has waived any conten-
    tion as to the burden of proof.
    As there is no evidence as to what IDOR likely would have
    collected from the purchasers but for the bankruptcy court’s
    section 363(f) free-and-clear orders, there is no way to deter-
    mine what decrease in value the section 363(f) orders caused
    or what, if any, consideration the purchasers paid specifically
    to buy the properties free and clear of IDOR’s interest under
    the Bulk Sales Provisions. No matter which party bore the
    burden of proof on this point, the failure of proof precludes a
    meaningful assessment of the value of IDOR’s interest. The
    bankruptcy courts therefore did not err in valuing IDOR’s in-
    terest at zero for purposes of its right to adequate protection
    under section 363(e).
    III.
    For all of the foregoing reasons, the judgments of the bank-
    ruptcy court are affirmed.